"You Don't Mess Around With Jim" by Jim Croce - The Music of Stranger Things

0:21 Hey y'all, and welcome back to Camp Nowhere, a Stranger Things podcast. My name is Joel. And my name is Lauren. We are so thankful you're here to listen to us process all things stranger. Things. We are wrapping up a miniseries called The Music of Stranger Things where we've been taking a deep dive into some of the key songs that are featured in the show. For this episode, we're focusing on the song You Don't Mess Around with Jim by Jim Croce. Yeah, and when we say deep dive, we mean a thorough song analysis and sharing lots of research we've done about the song itself, why it was written, as well as looking into the specific moments the song is used throughout the TV series.

1:04 Exactly why was it chosen for those specific moments? What kinds of emotional implications does that have in resonating with the audience, and how how does it affect or advance the overall plot of the show? So with that in mind. Spoiler alert. If you haven't yet watched Stranger Things in its entirety seasons one through 5, be warned. We will be discussing significant spoilers. So go watch Stranger Things and then you can join us 'cause we don't mess around with spoilers. No, we don't. And now that you've been warned, if you're completely caught up on Stranger Things, go give a listen to Jim Croce's You Don't Mess Around with Jim.

1:48 We got it. LinkedIn our show notes for our first segment, let's discuss who wrote the song, when they wrote it, and what was the historical and personal context of the song. Lauren hit us with that research. So from a feature on Biography and another from Viera Voice, I learned that American folk singer-songwriter and performer Jim Croce was born James Joseph Croce on January 10th, 1943 in South Philadelphia to Italian Americans Jim and Flora Croce. Raised listening to ragtime and country music, Crochet picked up music at a young age.

2:28 He learned to play his first song on the accordion when he was only 5 years old. He eventually taught himself to play guitar. After high school, he attended Villanova University, where he worked as a guitarist in numerous bands. He graduated from College in 65, became a guitar instructor at summer camps, and briefly taught at a Philadelphia middle school. He met Ingrid Jacobson at a folk music party in 1966. They married shortly after and began writing and recording their own compositions, frequently touring and trying in vain to catch a break.

3:06 In 1968, record producer Tommy W, who had attended Villanova with Croce, encouraged him and Jacobson to try their luck in New York City. Croce and his wife became disillusioned and discouraged with both the music big business in New York, and so they sold their guitars and moved to the Pennsylvania countryside of Lindell, where they had their son, Adrian James in 1971. Croce drove trucks and worked construction jobs while Ingrid finished college. All the while, Croce continued to write songs, never abandoning his lifelong dream of having a music career.

3:45 One day in 1971, of Croce's former college friends, Joe Salviulo, also known as Sal Joseph, introduced Croce to Mori Milaisen, a classically trained pianist, guitarist, and singer-songwriter from Trenton, NJ Sal encouraged the duo to get together and record new songs and send them to ABC Records. In 1972, ABC Records signed with Croce and released his first so solo album, You Don't Mess Around with Jim. The record was an instant success and became a Top 20 album in the United States. Croce's work occasionally took him into the darker corners of Philadelphia, where he would sometimes visit less than savory pool halls, Jacobson, his wife, recalled later.

4:33 He would sit there and watch the pool games and see what people were doing. He ended up with a guy named Jim Walker, who was one of the guys who used to play pool there. And what a character Big Jim Walker became in You Don't Mess Around with Jim. In Croce's mind, he imagined A cartoonish version of an intimidating New York City pool hustler. As the story unfolds. We learned that Big Jim hustles people for money with his well hone pool skills, but one day a southern boy nicknamed Slim comes to town, explaining that Walker had recently hustled him and that Slim was there to get his money back.

5:11 Of course, we are millennials, so that made us think about the 2004 Pool Shark episode of Drake and Josh. Are you out of your mind? I just kicked these losers butts. 200. Fuck it over Frankenstein. I'll give you 200 to stop talking you. Know what I'm thinking? You punks. Just hustled us. What US hustle you? No, no, no. I mean, we're just kids. We're stupid. We, we don't even know what the word hustled means. That's how stupid we are. So, so stupid. On September 20th, 1973, Croce, just 30 years old at the time, Mieleisen and four others were killed in a tragic plane crash in Louisiana.

5:53 Croce had just finished a concert at Northwestern State University's Prather Coliseum. He was then taking a chartered Beechcraft EU 18 S flight to Sherman, TX to play a concert at Austin College. Upon takeoff, the plane did not gain enough altitude and crashed into a pecan tree at the end of the runway. According to the official report, the 57 year old charter pilot had suffered a heart attack. So, so sad. And although Jim Croce didn't live to see his success, he did leave behind a legacy of a brief, yet in incredibly impressive music career that he always dreamed of having.

6:33 According to a feature from Culture Sonar, the song marking his breakthrough debut Singles spent eleven weeks on the Billboard Hot 100 chart, peaking at #8 The album reached number one in the US in early 1974, in the few months after Croce had passed. Wow. Yeah, that really puts into perspective just the brevity of life because, I mean, Croci was younger than we are now when he died, But yeah, his musical legacy lives on in shows like Stranger Things. With that in mind, let's discuss which particular seasons, episodes and scenes where the song plays and may be why we think they chose to use it in those specific moments.

7:21 Totally so the song is first used in season 2 episode 3 entitled The Pollywog when Hopper puts it on the record player in his cabin so it can play when he and 11 are cleaning and fixing up the cabin together to prepare it to become their new home. It continues to play as we see a montage of Hopper teaching L Morse code, hooking up ATV reset, and setting traps around the cabin. So here's a brief clip of that.

7:55 Yeah, yeah. All right, this. This is music. The song is used again in Season 3 episode 2 entitled The Mall Rats when Hopper is listening to it in his car after having just successfully kept Elle and Mike apart for one whole day. He had threatened Mike the night before after attempting and failing to have a talk about boundaries between the two of them because he believed Mike and Elle were spending far too much time together. The song continues to play as Hopper joyfully drives to Melvald's general store to update Joyce on the perceived victory.

8:48 So here's a clip of Hopper's talk with MM lying to Elle in order to avoid seeing her as he was fearful for his life, and then another of Hopper sharing the news with Joyce. What? Yeah, she needs you home right away. Is everything OK? No, I don't think so. It's your grandma. Is she dead? No. Did she fall again? No. Did she have cancer? No. Then I don't understand what's wrong with Nana. Nothing. There's nothing wrong with Nana What? But there's something very wrong with this thing between you and Elle.

9:35 Hello, it's 932. Where are you? Sorry, I I was just about to call. I can't see you today. Why not? It's my Nana. She's very sick. But hops. Said that your Nana was OK, that it was a false alarm. Yeah, that's what we thought it was at first. But then she took a real turn for the worse. Yeah, we think she might die. What? Mom, get off the phone. How many times? Did Nana call? No, mom, just get off the phone.

10:22 I'm sorry about that. Is that your mom? Yeah. She's so upset. She's making no sense because we have to go to the nursing home to see Nana. You. Can come over after. No, I mean, I just think I need to be alone today with my feelings. Do you lie? What? No, friends don't lie. What? Mom, my mom is calling me. Better go talk to you tomorrow. Miss you already. Bye.

10:58 Emotions have been shared, boundaries have been set. Order has been restore, wait. Wait, it works. This is the first day in six long, excruciating months that they will not be seeing each other. Yes, I think it worked, Yes. OK, but we got to share the bloopers of the scene of Hopper trying to have a talk with Mike and Elle because it's just too good not to. It's your grandma. Yeah. No, no, I don't think so. Such a crazy season. Ready. OK. You got this. It's your grandma. It's wrong menu. I don't know.

11:52 It's your grandma. The word is. So funny. I can't do this. I like that one too. Is one of our favorite bloopers of all time for sure. It's your grandma.

12:10 Oh, it lives rent free in my mind. Jim Hopper. What a guy. OK, and since the song seems to be the theme song for Chief Hopper, it's time to compare the gems. What are some of the similarities and differences between Big Jim Walker, who the song is about, and Chief Jim Hopper? I can kick this off with some similarities. So First off, both of the gyms are portrayed as physically strong and like formidable and scary. Big Jim is described as a pool shooting son of a gun who is stronger than a country hoss.

12:49 Similarly, Chief Hopper is an Army veteran. He's an expert combatant and a sort of fat Rambo figure who handles physical altercations with ease. He says he likes your courage. You remind him of a fat Rambo.

13:11 Second, both Jims rule their respective domains. Big Jim is the King of 42nd St. while Hopper is the unquestioned chief of police in the small town of Hawkins. And they also both were known to wear a signature hat. Hopper's kind of gives some Indiana Jones vibes, and we're not really told what kind of had Big Jim Walker wore. I really hope it was a bucket hat, but my gut tells me probs not. Also, hats off to you for observing so many similarities, but I honestly feel that there are more differences.

13:51 So for example, Big Jim is a criminal, a pool hustler, con artist, and a bully who lives by a don't mess with me credo. Chief Hopper, on the other hand, is a law enforcement officer who, despite his occasional rough edges and rule breaking, ultimately acts as a protector of his town. And then related to that, Big Jim seems to be driven by ego, greed and reputation. But Hopper is primarily driven by trauma, like the loss of his daughter Sarah, and later by his protective, loving role as a father figure to 11 and a partner to Joyce.

14:31 Big Jim is portrayed as somewhat unintelligent. I think Big and Dumb was the quote and arrogant, leading to his swift downfall by a more skilled opponent. Hopper, while initially jaded and had some drinking issues, he does have emotional depth, vulnerability, capacity for growth. Like he's a very dynamic character. He's also incredibly intelligent, operating like an undercover agent almost, especially in Season 1. His deductive reasoning skills are through the roof, and he was able to successfully execute his own escape from the Russian prison in Season 4.

15:14 And he even has the wits to know that mornings are for coffee and contemplation. Flo, Flo, We've discussed this. Mornings are for coffee and contemplation. Coffee and contemplation. Flo. So while both are untouchable figures in their own fields, Big Jim Walker represents more of a cautionary tale of arrogance and pride, whereas Chief Jim Hopper represents a flawed hero who seeks redemption and protection of the innocent. Big Jim dies after being cut and shot by his opponent, completely toppled. Hopper suffers immensely, but he endures and grows and ultimately protects his family.

16:01 Speaking of family, I feel like I just got to share my story about Jimmy. Jimmy. Right. We're talking about the gyms. You have to, you have to talk about the gym, you know? OK so back in college one day I went over to one of my best friend Lizzie's house. It was the first time I was going to be meeting her parents and her dad's name is Jimmy. Jimmy if you're listening to this shout out hi. Well, well, Liz and her mom needed to go grab something in the basement, so I was going to join them, but they said no, you don't need to come.

16:37 So then it's just me alone in the kitchen with Jimmy. And I was nervous and kind of unsure of what to say, so I decided to break the awkward silence by saying so Jimmy, what's that? Like? Short for Benjamin or something? To which Jimmy responds. It's James.

17:02 So. Good. Yeah. I was absolutely mortified. And I thought, well, I just messed that up and these people aren't going to want me to come over to their house again. Oh, yeah. And by the way, that's how I learned that Jim and Jimmy are short for James, just in case you were. Wondering, so just making sure it's James Hopper, not Benjamin Hopper. Correct. And I was in college like I was in college when I learned that Jimmy for James, thankfully, we were able to move past that moment. Jimmy and his family are still very important to me.

17:37 Yes. OK, Joel, what do you remember about the emotion you felt the first time you heard this song used in Stranger Things? Yes, I am shifting gears. Why do you think the use of this song resonates with the audience so well? So honestly, I hadn't heard the song, or if I did, I don't really remember it like before watching Stranger Things. And yet, even though I didn't grow up on the song, I think it helps ground the shows elements in a more like recognizable and nostalgic totally seventies 80s atmosphere.

18:17 I think it resonates with the audience because it's got a 70s folk style that adds to the nostalgia factor of the show, and the song only came out eleven years prior to the setting of the first season of Stranger Things. Ah, yes. Of course it's got to be 11. I bet the conformity gate people could add that to their massive list of evidence that the ending isn't real, everything is connected and Vecna somehow didn't actually die, right? Right. Because that's why the Duffers chose the song, because it's exactly 11 years apart from 1983, not because the main character in the song is named Jim.

18:58 Just like the police chief of Hawkins. Yeah. Exactly. That's exactly why I love the use of this song so much. It serves as like a fun thematic anthem for Jim Hopper, highlighting his role as the baddest protective force in Hawkins. I think the audience also associates it like as Hopper's song. I love the song choice because I grew up on music like this listening to WGRR Oldies 103.5 with my dad. I love how up until the first time we heard the song played in the show, Elle likely viewed Hop as a strict policeman who disapproved of her since she was associated with Hawkins Lab, which he did not care for.

19:45 But then when he opens up his cabin and his life to her and he puts this song on the record player, he actually starts, like, smiling and dancing. It was the first moment Hopper and Elle really seemed to bond as father and daughter. And it just reminded me of how much I love listening to these throwbacks with my own dad, you know? Yeah. That's sweet. Your dad does have a great taste in music. Shout out Brian. Brian, if you're out. There, listening, then you shouldn't. Be because you haven't watched Stranger Things yet, that's also true.

20:18 Stop watching. Stop. Stop. Listening to this, but yeah, I also think it's a great choice for Hoppers Theme because of the irony of the song title itself, because it's called You don't Mess Around with Jim. And yet, unfortunately, a lot of people messed with Jim. He got beat up by Dimitri, who is basically a Russian Terminator. True. He got beat up by folks at Hawkins Lab and he was beaten terribly while imprisoned in Russia. Poor guy. Yeah, the song. Title highlights the irony that Hopper, even though he's a heroic figure, he often faces consequences, much like the arrogant pool shark in the song.

21:01 Wow. Yeah. Honestly, such a good point. OK, well, I think it's time now that we do a deep dive into the actual instrumentalization of the song itself. So Joel, this is more your area of expertise. Could you hit us up with some of the musicality of the song? Why Sure. Yeah, so the song came out in 72 and it primarily features. It's got acoustic guitar, it's got piano, bass, drums and some backup vocals, as well as some scatting that Croce will do. And so Tommy W, who you mentioned earlier, he provided the piano and the bass and the additional percussion.

21:48 The chorus has a kind of soulful bluesy. It's got that call and response going on where the backup singers add some nostalgia and almost like the gospel, like a gospel kind of layer to it because of the way they're harmonizing. And it's just honestly a fun song. Yeah, like you even hear at at some point during the song, you hear people in the background, like, laughing, and it just sounds like they're having a good time. So true. Yeah, I love that there seems to be gospel singers in the background.

22:22 Probably one of my favorite parts of the song. So, Joel, since you were the piano expert, I wanted to ask if you noticed any specific observations about the use of piano in this song. Yeah. Yeah, so Tommy West on piano, he's got some riffs and a bass line that give kind of like a light, like boogie woogie feel to it is a fun word. It's a genre, Yeah. And the chords, they shift between different bluesy, they're called dominant 7th chords. So like the song's an E and so the main chords are an E7, an A7 and AB7.

23:09 So those are like typical like blue Z dominant 7th chords and they're playing over a shuffle rhythm. And what's important about that is that that's the rhythm from the percussion that makes it have that kind of pool hall feel, which is perfect because that's the setting of the song, because it's. A story. Brilliant. And then what's interesting though, is that even though there are some bluesy elements to it, the verses themselves don't actually follow the typical Blues pattern. They're more of an atypical pattern that strays away from the normal, like Blues 12 bar progression.

23:54 And I think that gets to one thing that I really that I like and think it's interesting about the song is that it combines different genres. So like you've got the bluesy 7th chords like I mentioned earlier, you've got certain piano riffs and bass line movements that make it have some boogie woogie elements. It's just such a fun word to say boogie woogie. So you got Blues boogie woogie, you've got that shuffle rhythm. And then the lyrics themselves are like a folk song, like it's folk storytelling.

24:37 The idea is that it's a story about a guy named Jim Walker and why we should not mess with him. OK, so you might say that those are the Blues clues. Oh, we could. We could combine the two different genres like Blues and folk to create a new genre bloke or. Flues, I mean, I mean, I think folks would agree that there's no need to mess around with genre titles, I guess. Bloke and Flus wouldn't be the best for marketing purposes. Speaking of, do you want to tell the people on which platforms they can find us?

25:18 Of course, smooth transition. Yeah. Thank you all so much for listening. The platforms that you can listen to us on are on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Audible, or Amazon. Yes, if you enjoyed listening, give us a follow, give us a rating. That really helps us get the show out there. Totally. So that was a wrap up of our music deep dive y'all, and we're about to launch into a new miniseries we're calling. Can I get a little brief drum roll? I don't know if they can even hear that. Hairy things where?

25:57 We're for the. I'm sorry, we're children. We're. For the next several episodes, we'll be doing a deep dive on the parallels and contrast between Harry Potter and Stranger Things. Hence hairy things, which is not much better than bloke and flues. I'm realizing hairy things. So our next episode will be focusing on Vecna and Voldemort. So if you have any thoughts about their similarities or differences, world views or general villainry, we'd love to hear from you. You can let us know who you think is the worst villain.

26:37 You can contact us at [email protected] or on Instagram at our handle Camp Nowhere Pod. Thank you all so much again and we'll catch you on the next one. See you all, bye.