The Girl with the 011 Tattoo

0:21 Hey y'all, and welcome back to Camp Nowhere, a Stranger Things podcast. My name is Joel. And my name is Lauren. We are so thankful you were here to listen to US process all things Stranger Things. In honor of this being our 11th episode, we are focusing entirely on 11. We plan to do a deep dive of her character, processing her different strengths, weaknesses, best moments and a little fate speculation before 1111. Make a wish. Lightning round. What was that noise I. Just wasn't expecting 1111. That was funny.

1:01 Yeah, 1111, make a wish. It's true, but before you make that wish, spoiler alert, if you have not watched Stranger Things in its entirety seasons one through 5, be warned. We will be discussing a lot of spoilers. That's true, so give the show a watch before giving us a listen. Yes, and with that in honor of 11, get you a triple Decker a go extravaganza and enjoy this iconic season 1 recap wrap from Millie Bobby Brown on The Tonight Show before we dive in. Let's go back to Indiana, circa 1983, just for boys in the basement chilling, playing D&D.

1:43 There was Lucas, There was Willie, Will and Dustin. There was a mic. But one night Will goes missing while he's riding on his bike. Yes, that's when they met me alive. I had no hair on my head. I have been so close to Dad. Courtesy of Doctor Brando, who's hunting me 24/7. Joyce was hanging Christmas lights in the web, started hearing something Willie had said. This could be a message from the beyond. What happened to Bob? She's just going in the Upside Down on top of the case where I throw advance in the space.

2:12 I'm lying down in the OK, trying my best to find Willy and Dustin's got put in for days. Demagogue is getting all in my way. That's in the pieces. Just like a grenade. We'll sell a home cuff and drugs. And let's take what happened to me. I'm in the upside down. What about now? The soccer continues tuning to see how upside down. What about now The soccer continues tuning to see how all I need is my ego Waffles. I'm in love with those. What I'm left with when I use my powers is a bloody nose. Yeah.

2:42 Bad news when you see that bloody nose. Yeah, bad news when you see that bloody nose. Billy Bobby Brown, everybody. Man, wish we could go back to Indiana circa 1983. OK, time to break down the back story for She Does it Better Than Me. So we're going to break down the back story of 11. Is that our first segment? That's our first segment, baby. Let's go, let's do it. So 11 was born. Jane Ives, later adopted as Jane Hopper, is a girl with psychonetic power. Psychokinetic powers, excuse me, who was taken from her mother when she was born on June 7th, 1971, was raised in a test as a test subject in Hawkins National Lab.

3:33 11's biological mother is Terry Ives, a young woman who volunteered for government experiments connected to the MK Ultra program in the early 70s. While she was pregnant, Terry was drugged and used in mind related experiments and when she gave birth, Doctor Martin Brenner and his team immediately took the baby from her. The yeah, the abduction was covered up as a miscarriage. So there is no official record of Jane's birth. Awful Doctor Brenner raised Jane in Hawkins Lab, gave her the number 11 tattoo, and she became known only as 11.

4:13 She was subjected to years of isolation tests, sensory deprivation, tank sessions, and increasingly dangerous psychic experiments meant to weaponize her abilities. Other numbered children were also present, but 11 was isolated and often bullied and heavily controlled by Brenner, who posed as a twisted sort of father figure, which we talked about more in a previous episode. Under Brenner's direction, 11 used her powers to spy on Soviet targets at great distances by entering a pitch black psychic void thing in the sensory deprivation tank that he called the bath.

4:53 During one mission, she psychically encountered a monstrous being who we later find out was a Demogorgon and from another dimension, and that contact is what opened the gate to the parallel realm, which later became known as the Upside Down. On November 6th, 1983, on the same day that Will Byers went missing, 11 escaped the lab and fled into the woods outside Hawkins. She was briefly sheltered by diner owner Benny Hammond before lab agents killed him and tried to recapture her, forcing her back on the run.

5:32 Soon after, she met Mike, Lucas and Dustin, who discovered her powers and realized she could help them search for their missing friend Will. Having been raised as a weapon, 11's early story centers on her learning basic friendship, trust, and normal childhood experiences with the boys who nicknamed her Hell. Over time, she gradually rejected Brenner's control, sacrificed herself to destroy the monster threatening Hawkins, and later is taken in by Chief Jim Hopper as a surrogate father. And so she took the name Jane Hopper.

6:08 She goes on to deepen friendship with the boys and eventually Max Mayfield. She dates Mike Wheeler, protects the Party from different attacks by Vecna and the Mind Flayer, and ultimately sacrifices herself in order to save Hawkins and her new found family at the end of the story. Yes, and we will definitely debate later on whether or not we think she actually died when making that sacrifice. But my goodness, she really suffered so much growing up in a lab. Like can you even imagine that being your childhood?

6:41 That no, that's that's so awful. Yeah, me neither. She sure is resilient though, which Speaking of that, we can move into our next segment 11 strengths. So I can I can hit us with that. Supernatural strengths. So she has telekinesis. She can move, lift, and crush objects and people with her mind, from flipping vans to restraining monsters, breaking bones. She's definitely very strong in that regard. She has telepathy and she can mind walk, so she can enter the minds of others, see their memories, communicate from across great distance, and even influence or control people's actions.

7:30 And then remote viewing is tied to that. So you mentioned the void. By entering the void she can locate people anywhere in the world and secretly observe what they are doing or saying. She's got interdimensional abilities under extreme emotion. She can open and close gates to the upside down and manipulate portals created by others, and then bio kinesis and life manipulation so she can affect bodily functions like making a bully wet himself, snapping limbs, damaging organs. She can bring someone back from clinical death, though not fully undo all of of their injuries.

8:13 In Season 1 episode 7 entitled The Bathtub, Troy, who was kind of the main school bully, explains to Chief Hopper and the other policeman that a girl made him pee himself. Yes, So what this girl look like? She had no hair and she was bleeding from her. Nose like a freak. What'd you just say? Said she's a freak? No, her hair. What'd you say about her hair? Her head shaved, she doesn't even look like a girl and and what? Tell the man try she can do things What kind of things like

9:04 make you fly and piss yourself? What was she alone? She always hangs out with those losers. Losers. What losers. Indeed. And then we also have her personal and emotional strengths. So she is fiercely protective. She constantly risk herself to shield her friends and later the whole town, which often pushes her powers to new heights. In season 1 episode 6, the monster Elle approaches the school bullies who were trying to harm her friends, and she uses her mind to break Troy's arm. She.

9:56 Broke my arm. And in season 4 episode 9, The Piggyback Elle attacks Vecna in order to protect and defend Max, even though she is unsure if her powers have come back to full strength, and that puts herself at extreme risk for her defenseless bestie. Touch her again. I will kill you again. Elle also is known for her resilience because, like we talked about earlier, her childhood was extreme. And traumatic. And filled with trauma. Yeah. And so like, a huge part of her character growth is that she learns to form bonds and actually trust other people, and even through that helps her to rebuild a sense of identity as Jane Hopper.

10:52 And she also grows in empathy, in the void and in memories. She comforts and connects with people like Max and Billy because she's able to see their past, like able to see their memories and using her. So that way she's able to use her powers not just as weapons, but also to show care and maybe even help people to heal some. Yeah. But as every hero has strengths, they also have weaknesses. Some of the elevens are, especially in the first, like in the earlier seasons, there's a physical toll that her powers put on her body.

11:40 And so yeah, I mean, people know her for her signature Nosebleed, but also like when she uses greater like her power to greater extents, like it can just leave to exhaustion or even collapsing. Yeah, kind of like depletes her. Temporarily, Yeah, even like blacking out or going into a coma, like when trying to close gates or when trying to fight back against Beckna. Yeah. Here's a clip from Season 1 episode 8 The Upside Down, where the boys aren't sure where Jonathan and Nancy went and Elle is exhausted after having searched for Barb and Will in the void Well.

12:21 Where are you going? You just said. Stick to the plan. I am. I'm just going to go get some chocolate pudding. Elle needs to be recharged. She also has suffered temporary loss of her powers. Yeah. And so like, a huge part of Season 4 was her participation in the Neenah Project, which was trying to help her get her powers back. And we come to find out that part of the difficulty in getting her powers back is because of the trauma that she had. And even what's the word for it? It's like suppressing.

13:01 Oh yeah. Like when something so extreme happens that people may actually, like, suppress the memory. So she. Definitely did. That. And so she did that. I mean, as a young child, how else was she going to cope? Yeah. And so because of that, she suppressed specifically her memory of, of the massacre at Hawkins Lab and then her consequently trying to protect herself by like forcing Henry Creole into the void, into the Upside Down. And so yeah, she but because of that trauma that she had suppressed and she didn't confront it or wasn't able to, that there was a time for a lot of Season 4 where she didn't have her powers.

13:55 Well, not only that, I'm also thinking about how it made her memory kind of foggy. Like to where throughout the whole series, she's wrestling with wondering if she was the monster, if she was the evil one that caused all of this because she. Yeah, she suppressed what she did to Henry. Like she to where she almost wondered if she was the one that caused all of that. Yeah. And then we come to find out in Season 5 that they're actually devices, I guess, that the military somehow figured out could be used against 11 and other people like Kali with those powers.

14:40 They were like frequency, high frequency devices that use like Sonic waves. I think they called them like hedgehogs. Yeah, hedgehogs. And so, yeah, they emitted some kind of like Sonic wave that basically caused her to scream really loudly. She screams loudly a lot in the show. But yeah, she she would basically scream very loudly and it would prevent her from being able to use any of her powers. You could tell that she was like an actual physical anguish. Yeah, sometimes the screaming was just to cope with all the trauma.

15:17 Yeah, that too. It's understandable, but yeah, yeah. And come to find out that it not only, like, inflicted pain, but that I would actually temporarily neutralize their psychic abilities. Yeah. And then we find out later that I was able to do that because of Henry Creel's blood that gave them those psychic abilities. Right. And so the Sonic waves would somehow interfere with the blood. Yeah. Within them. It's trippy. Yeah, it is trippy. Yeah, so she also has different emotional and personal flaws we brought.

15:58 We mentioned trauma and her temper. So her lab upbringing makes her prone to occasional rage fueled outbursts where she might alienate her friends. So I'm thinking about in season 1 she kind of had an outburst and she attacked Lucas. Thank thank goodness he he did he. There were no serious consequences of that, but it did temporarily knock him out. Or she might act recklessly out of fear for her loved ones. And some of this does stem from the trauma that she experienced. So there's also a dependency on bonds.

16:36 So losing powers amplifies her insecurity. She struggles maybe with normalcy and self worth without them. Relying heavily on my copper and others for a sense of emotional stability and then lack of self worth or sense of belonging. So I kind of alluded to this, but because of Doctor Brenner's manipulation of her really throughout her entire childhood and upbringing, she really seems to wrestle with a sense of self worth or belonging. She's constantly analyzing and wondering if she's the monster.

17:14 So here's a clip from Season 4, Episode 3 entitled The Monster and the Superhero, where Elle explains to Mike what she's been feeling internally.

17:28 So are we just not going to talk about it? About what? I don't know. Just. Maybe like about yesterday or everything. There's nothing to say. Yeah, I guess. I guess I'm just a little because I just don't really understand. Why didn't you tell me what's going on here? I mean, you know, I'm not exactly Mr. Popularity back at home. I mean, you've seen it. I've been bullied my entire life. I mean, I know what it's like. No, you don't. OK, what don't I understand? I am different.

18:18 I do not belong. You mean in Lenora?

18:27 Anywhere. Come on, you can't actually believe that. Everyone looks at me like like I'm a monster. Well, they just don't know you. You think I'm a monster too? What? Yesterday, the way you looked at me, you, you were scared of me. No, no, no, that's not that's, that's not true. I was surprised. Maybe I was a little upset in the moment, but I mean, I'm sorry, I just, I didn't know what to do. I mean, it just, it was so crazy. It happened so fast, but it doesn't change anything. It doesn't matter. I I care for you so much.

19:10 Care, but you don't. You don't love me anymore. Who? Who said that? I. Didn't you'd never say it. I say it.

19:24 You can't even write it, Mike. From my, from my, from my from my from. OK, OK, I love them. You're being. Ridiculous. What? Like, what is this you? You know what I think of you. You're the most incredible person in the world. And you can't let these mouth breathers ruin you. Ruin us. I mean, they're nobodies. They're nobodies and you're a superhero. Not anymore.

20:02 She is a superhero. OK Joel, it's time. It's time. Why don't we alternate back and forth and sharing some of our favorite moments of hers. So our our next segment 11 of 11's best moments in no particular order. So the first one that came to mind for me is also in season 4. If you can't tell, we really love season 4, Season 4 Episode 9 entitled The Piggyback when she's talking with her bestie Max after having just showed up via Vecna's mind. Like piggybacked in his mind because it's hilarious and just a sweet moment in their friendship.

20:48 Max, are you OK? Huh. Are you OK?

21:00 Yep. Are you? Are you real? Did I make you? I'm real? Ow. I piggybacked from a pizza dough freezer.

21:14 What? Yeah, that's probably one of my favorites too. Like peak comedy in the. Show I love the deadpan. Yeah, like I love that moment too, because it was a sweet opportunity for Sadie Singh to get to tap into some humor because I feel like they had her playing more dramatic and serious type like role throughout the whole show. But in that moment you got to see a little bit of like comedy come through her, which is really fun. Yeah, yeah. And Speaking of deadpan, another great moment is season 5 Episode 2, The Vanishing of Holly Wheeler.

21:50 It's when Elle is Ellen Hopper in the Upside Down, and Elle is telling Hopper how Karen fought back against a Demogorgon in order to protect her daughter Holly. Wait, wait. You got to, you got to get out of here. It's not safe. There's a Demogorgon. I know it's bleeding. She must have heard it. What? Who? Karen with her wine? What? You know, now that I think about it, like, I love that there that moment was in there because I can't think of many moments throughout Stranger Things when Karen doesn't have a glass of wine.

22:33 Like, And so I think they were almost like nodding to that of like, of course it would be with a wine bottle attack a demo. Bergen OK my so #3 mine would be Season 3 Episode 2 entitled The Mallrats when Elle's friendship with Max is really starting to flourish and they go shopping and they take pictures together at the Star Court Mall. Do you like that? How do I know what I like you Just try things on until you find something that feels like you. Like me. Yeah. Not Hopper, Not Mike. You.

23:20 OK, I got a shout out my girly pop Erica, because these montage scenes at the mall really like represent our friendship in a nutshell. We do our annual birthday celebration since it's both in January and we like to like go to Goodwill together or I know malls aren't really as much of a thing now, but we'll go to like Goodwill and like try on like tacky, silly outfits and stuff. So I think that I just love that scene in the show because because it made me think a lot of my friendship with Erica. Yeah, Erica.

23:54 Yeah. OK #4 in season 1. Season 1 is so good y'all. So good. It's so good because you just don't know, Like it's just setting up everything. Yeah, we say it every time we bring it up, but it's true. But it's true. There's the mystery. Yeah, it has more mystery than any of the seasons. Because you don't know. We don't know what's going on. Yeah, right. And like, I mean as well is that we're currently drinking tea. Tea. Yeah, we are drinking tea. And yeah, and Lawrence mug. What is Lawrence? Mog it's from girly pop Shout out Eric.

24:35 And this wasn't even for like Christmas or anything. This was just a random Tuesday. Probably just I saw this and thought of you and love you. But yeah, I use this nearly every day. And yeah, it's the iconic, like Christmas lights with the alphabet. But then there's also on the side like blood streaks. Not not like our blood, but like on the on the mug that it's, it's meant to look like a Demogorgon attack, I think. That's so calming. Yeah, very calming. But yeah, we do love season 1. So anyway I was saying about #4 is that in season 1 episode 7 the bathtub when L it uses her mind to flip the van Y'all Oh my gosh.

25:22 Hawkins power and light. Which, by the way, is a really good like factoid to know for Stranger Things trivia. Is it a behemoth factoid? It's a. That's a call back to our last episode, in case you were wondering. But yeah, it's like, that's a good one. So if you ever do Stranger Things trivia, remember that Brenner and his goons were under the disguise of a van called Hawkins Power and Light. And Joel brings that up because when we were doing Stranger Things trivia as we do, well, that's like the one thing I couldn't remember.

25:58 Yeah, because it's so niche and specific. But yes, Hawkins Power and light. And so now it's wired in my memory. And so, yeah, the yeah, like the boys are, you know, it's very 80s. It's like the bad guys are coming. We've got to get on our bikes and go. And so they're trying to escape. And then the van is coming towards them and they don't know what to do. They're cornered. And Elle just flips the van. It's. Directly over them. It's so cool. That one is so good. And I I love how later Dustin asked, did you see what she did to that van?

26:55 And Mike's response is, no, Dustin, we missed it. It's like like that's Sargasm. So, so good. OK, so my next one. #5. Yes, is from See What did they put in this tea? It's only Bengal spice, milk and sugar. Yeah, Joel made the D Yeah, I did. So by they I don't know, it's like an arbitrary that I don't know who they is. But Joel, Joel made the tea. So my next one is from season 3, episode 8 entitled The Battle of Star Court. So it's the season finale, Elle recalls for Billy, so Max's older brother or stepbrother, his own memory of being at the beach in California with his mom, like where he used to live.

27:46 And it that scene, like that speech, it's ultimately what led him to sacrifice himself in order to protect her and ultimately everyone else in Hawkins. He told her the wave was 7 feet.

28:14 You ranted her on the beach. There were seagulls.

28:31 She wore a hat with a blue ribbon, a long dress with a blue and red flower, yellow sandals covered sand.

28:56 She was pretty. She's really pretty and you, you're happy. And now we move to number six, Season 4 episode 8 entitled Papa. Yeah. It's such a good moment when Elle, like, starts putting the pieces together. She finally understands what actually happened at the massacre of Hawkins Lab. She realized that she didn't actually kill them, but that Henry did. But even though Henry did that, she ultimately puts the pieces together that Doctor Brenner was relentlessly trying to do all of these experiments in order to try to find Henry, but it led to so much death and suffering and so and.

29:59 She doesn't think that Brenner made the right choice by even allowing Henry, knowing how dangerous he is, like allowing him to be in the lab where all these children are. Yeah, yeah. And so she puts it together. And so she and Doctor Brenner have just a really powerful confrontation moment. And Elle eventually tells Papa, like she realized that she's not the monster, but that he is. Now I know the truth. It is not me, it is you.

30:41 You are the monster. Yes, that is definitely a powerful moment. OK #7 #7 is from season 4 again when Elle brings Max back to life using her powers and she says you're not going. You're not going.

31:17 Man, yeah, that's a powerful scene. So for mine for #8 Season 3 Episode 7, The Bite, there the gang is in the cabin. The Mind Flayer has come and is going to attack the cabin and all these different tentacles from the Mind Flayer start popping up and Elle's screaming and like pointing her hands at things and just stopping things and ripping flesh and she tears the mine player's head in half and it's just a really beautiful moment. And exactly what I was picturing when we stepped foot in Hopper's cabin, like on our honeymoon.

31:56 Yeah, It's like, wow, this is where Elle ripped the mine Flayer's head in. Half, yeah. OK, so #9. #9. Thank you. I was waiting for that. Excuse me? Yes. So season 4 again, Episode 7 entitled The Massacre at Hawkins Lab. It's when Elle rejects Henry Creole's offer to join him with the simple yet incredibly powerful No, If you come with me for the first time in your life, you will be free. Imagine what we could do together. We could reshape the world, remake it however we see fit. Join me.

33:06 And that's definitely a moment that Lauren and I will quote. It's. Iconic. It's so funny. She just looks him dead in the eye straight up. And it's just like, no. And we have to remember that it's not Elle as like a young teenager saying that to him because this is the Nina project. So she's being shown a memory of how she as a young girl said that to him. I think we forget that. It's like she was what, maybe like six or seven years old when she just kind of defiantly was like, no, And then she just like banishes him, eats him.

33:40 Well, but it's cool because it shows her moral character. Like even at such a young age, she she knew like I am not I don't I can't trust him. I will not join. Him. That's like not nice man. Kill all the children in their blood everywhere. So no. So no, Yeah.

34:02 Did he think she was gonna say yes? I'm sorry. That also is crazy. Like and like of all the people you killed. Like, what was he thinking? Did he really think he had a shot anyway? Yeah, we move on to #10 something actually from Season 2, guys. Not season 4. Wow. Hey, we like season 2. I think we wanted to make sure we at least got it in. The woods some somewhere, yeah. So season 2 Episode 8 The Mind Player when L kills the demo dog and throws it through the window before reuniting with Mike after they've been apart for such a long time.

34:40 Where are they? Yeah, it's a sweet reunion. He had been counting down the days, like every single day since he had last seen her. So sweet. I think she'd been doing the same thing. All right? And now #11. #11. So this one's from Season 5 Episode 8 entitled The Right Side Up. It's when Elle has her last moment with Mike before sacrificing herself to restore Hawkins and protect her friends and. If this will ever end, not if I'm still here. No, no, no. We'll figure something out. We'll figure something out.

35:37 We'll fight back. We always do. I need you to talk to the others. No, I need you to thank them for me, for being so kind to me and teaching me what it means to be a friend. No, please don't do this. Please don't do this. Like I need you to help them understand my choice. But I don't I don't understand. I know, but you will. One day you will. Tragic. I definitely was crying whenever we watched that scene, but also it's a great segue into our next segment, which is called Do I Believe? So? Toward the end of season 5, in that finale episode, Elle seemingly sacrificed herself and appeared to be wiped out as the wormhole destroyed the Upside Down Hawkins.

36:28 However, in the epilogue, Mike has seems to have a realization during the graduation ceremony that causes him to speculate that 11 could actually still be alive. He shares his theory with the rest of the gang after playing DND. And the storyteller? What about him?

36:52 The storyteller keeps telling stories, stories inspired by his friends. One day, he hopes their tales of grand adventure will spread far and wide across the land so all can know of their great bravery. But there is a story that he can never tell. The story of the mage.

37:22 Or at least not the real story. The real story.

37:30 When she cast Sunbeam. Goodbye, Mike.

37:38 She expended the last of her energy and she vanished.

37:46 Does anyone ask themselves how she cast that spell?

37:50 The suppression stone? She couldn't have used her magic. In the excitement, no one even noticed. You see, the mage is very clever, a cleverness only matched by her sister, who, upon hearing the pleads of the paladin, had a change of heart. Don't cry, Jane, my story was always going to end here, but yours doesn't have to. Together, the sisters devised a plan. A plan to protect the mage from the Order of the Black Hand, who remained hell bent on stealing her powers. So in order to trick them she had to make everyone, including her friends believe that she was dead.

38:40 And so the sister cast a spell from far away, save from the power of the suppression stone

38:52 spell of invisibility. Once the mage escaped, the sister cast one final spell. Who made you sought died was not real. She was an illusion.

39:09 Where did she go? No one knows, no one will ever know. But I'd I'd like to imagine that she's in a beautiful land. Somewhere far away. She finds a small town to call home, safe from the danger of the Black Hand. It was just here, at last, that she finds peace, that she finally finds happiness. This is just a theory, right? How do we know it's true? We don't. Not for sure, but I choose to believe that it is. Mike believes that his theory is true and so do the rest of his friends. So now we are going to process if we believe.

40:00 Joel, what are your thoughts? Do you believe and why or why not? I believe I truly do and here's why. So when re watching the scenes you can see that Elle doesn't have her 11 tattoo on her wrist right before her sacrifice. Her nose isn't bleeding, which always happens when she uses her powers, and that leads me to believe that the person everyone saw that was sacrificing herself may have been some sort of illusion. Yeah, yeah, totally. I completely agree. Was it Kali who created the illusion? Most likely.

40:42 Or maybe it was 11 from a distance. It would have been really cool if somehow they had made it to where her mom, Terry Ives, created the illusion. Not sure why we never saw Terry after season 2, but yeah. But when? Oh my gosh. But yeah, when you see at least 5 or more of those Sonic Hedge, wow, Sonic the Hedgehog, they're Sonic devices. I just put that together. I wonder if that was? Intentional around at the speed anyway. Yes, but when you see at least five of the hedgehog kryptonite things that like prevent her from using her powers, they're all pointed in her direction.

41:23 You put the pieces together that she couldn't have been able to enter Mike's mind so she must have escaped and was out of range. And also as I was rewatching I noticed that 11 seemed to be immediately captured by the military men who were berating the Bradley's big buy truck as soon as the gang arrived at the maxi. So if that's the case and she couldn't use her powers to escape from them, then perhaps Mike's theory is true that Kali or someone else used one last illusion and invisibility field around 11 and or the other kids, allowing the real 11 to slip away unseen while the soldiers are focused on what they think they are seeing.

42:10 If you've seen Wicked for good. Wicked for good spoilers. True. Yeah, Yeah. Major spoilers if you have not seen Wicked for good. I will be spoiling. We're gonna spoil the ending in like the next few seconds, so be warned. Yeah, Joel takes spoilers very seriously. Thank you. Thank you. But yeah, then if you've seen that, then you know this theory is totally plausible. It's giving elf above. So except for in a lot of ways, elf sacrifice is even more tragic I would say than Alphaba's because at least Alphaba got to be with Fiero in the end.

42:47 11 had to make it seem like she had died to all of her friends and family and they have no way of knowing where she is. She now has to completely start over, building new relationships, likely in a faraway place, in order to ensure their safety as well as her own. This is such an honorable, selfless act. She really is a superhero. She's not the monster and I wholeheartedly believe that she is still out there. Me too, dear. Yeah. All right. It's time for our final segment. 1111 Make a wish lightning round.

43:26 I answered questions the last episode. So now it's your turn, dear. OK with. #1 number. 1. Would you rather train under Brenner with powers or live totally normal but never meet the party like your closest friends? So starting off with a really easy question, gosh, that's, that's a good question. I think I'm going to say I would have rather lived a normal life but never meet the party. And I know that sounds super depressing. Like the thought of not knowing my closest friends does make me really, really sad.

44:04 But here's the thing, If I lived a normal life, I wouldn't really. I wouldn't know that I was missing out on that. And I wholeheartedly believe that God designed us to be deeply relational beings. And he'll provide community as long as we intentionally seek it out. And so I would, I would save myself a lot of suppressed trauma and a lot of abuse and hopefully be able to, Lord willing, make a new party, like, you know, make friends and and yeah, I've had more of a normal childhood. So I think, I think I would go with that.

44:41 And also, like, there are times when it's really advantageous for Elle to have powers. But then, you know, we see Henry Creel's life and you can see that, you know, having powers isn't always the best thing that it can be used not always for good. So, and I mean, I know that apart from Christ, like I, I don't want to know what I would do with those powers, you know, So I think I'm going to go ahead and say that I would rather live to normal childhood and just have to make different friends. That's.

45:14 A good answer, yeah #2 OK, which is the better duo and why 11 and Mike or 11 and Max?

45:27 Dang, I love both of those duos for different reasons, and I know a lot of them, like favorite moments I mentioned had to do with Elle and her friendship with Max. But as much as I love that, I still think I'm going to say 11 and Mike. Really. I Yeah. And here's why, like kind of like what she says in her final speech, like her good, her goodbye to him and season 5. She's like you. I don't remember exactly how she said it, but she's like, you've seen me Like like she just, you know, like you've seen all of me and you know me better than anyone.

46:10 And I just think that they have this really sweet, you know, love that kind of started off just like innocent kids. And he just cared for her from day one when he first saw her, you know, in the pouring rain out in the woods and that oversized yellow T-shirt. And she. Yeah, She finally felt like she found somebody who could connect with her on a really deep level of like, he had been bullied too, and he could empathize with her. Like, that's a big, not to say trauma bonding is always the best. But like, they, you know, they just have a very sweet relationship.

46:45 And then on top of that, why I didn't choose Elle and Max is because while they have some wonderful moments in their friendship, particularly in Season 3, is what I'm thinking about. You know, outside of that, we don't really get to see a lot of their friendship develop because they're in different states. And then Max is in a coma, like a state in a, you know, coma for a while. And yeah, I'm going to be real. I feel like we were a little bit let down with in Season 5 and Max is finally awake. I just don't really feel like they portrayed Elle and Max.

47:28 They didn't give show like the beautiful friendship that we had seen flourishing. They just kind of, it just kind of seemed like, oh, you're awake now And I so I think because of that, I'm prone to choose Elle and Mike instead that. Makes sense. Yeah, yeah #3. Wait, but which one would you pick? Like do you agree or I'm like I wanna know your answer too? I was asking you, but I'll answer to you.

47:56 I mean, yeah, I would say 11 and Mike cause yeah, because in season 5 we are let down on Max and 11's reunion. Yeah, like. If one of my best friends had been in a coma for over a year and then they finally woke up, I mean, I would be like over the moon, like so excited, like largest hug ever. Like, wouldn't want to leave their side, you know? And that's just not what we got. Yeah, instead we just got more Holly screen time. Yeah. Which is just a pet peeve of mine. I know, I know, Maybe they, maybe Elle and Max just had their friendship off screen.

48:45 Maybe that's what happened. Yeah, lots of things happen off screen. Yeah. Susie Pooh #3 What is one way that you relate to 11? Wow, OK, well I'm going to be vulnerable here and just share like I really relate to her and resonate with her especially. I'm thinking of season 4 and just the ways that she was kind of ostracized and bullied. I was never thankfully bullied to that like extreme but but I definitely was intentionally left out by different friends or people I thought were friends. I guess growing up, especially in middle school is more so in middle school than high school for me.

49:39 But yeah, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I remember seeing that like watching season 4 for the first time and oh, I just like struck A chord with me. It brought back, it resurfaced a lot of those unfortunate memories for me. And yeah, it brought me to tears. And I really just, yeah, my heart like breaks for 11. And she, she kind of became one of my favorite characters. Like those moments where she, I'm thinking of the one where she's talking with Mike and Mike's like, hey, like, you know, I've been bullied my whole life.

50:15 Like, I know how you feel. And she's like, no, you don't. And she's like, I do not belong, you know? And he's like, you mean, like, what does he say? Like in Hawkins? And she said anywhere. And it's just, yeah. Like, not to be too much of A Debbie Downer, but I've had different seasons where I've wrestled with that maybe not feeling like, like I belong in certain spaces. You know, I read this thing recently that was kind of like, man, if you enter into a space and you're finding yourself having to constantly fight for a seat at the table of that space to feel like you fit in or that people will accept you, then maybe you're trying to take a seat at the wrong table.

51:02 And I. And I was like, wow, yeah, I wish I had learned that earlier in life. But yeah, like, I just, I just am so thankful that 11 found finally the right people that that would accept her and give her a seat at the table. So yeah, I guess I would say that's how I relate to her. Like it. It took a long time, but eventually by God's grace, I found friends that have given me a seat in the table of their hearts and vice versa and so. Yeah. Yeah.

51:37 Well, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, thanks for giving me a seat in the table of your heart. Back at you. Yeah. #4. OK. All right, did 11 make the right choice in sacrificing herself at the end of Season 5? Why or why not? Wow. These are some deep questions, babe. Yeah. OK, yeah, that's tough. I would have to say she did. She did. I think that. I mean, it's heartbreaking, obviously, but I think she came to realize what Kali was explaining to her of like, listen, the cycle has to end somewhere.

52:26 They're going to like, even if you make it out of all of this, they're going to hunt you down and find you. You will be at risk. Your friends and family will be at risk. If they get a hold of your blood, they might just repeat the whole cycle. And because there were the that experimentation on pregnant women and and they're like this, she was like, this could all just keep happening. And when were the when will the evil end? And I think Elle just kind of realize I do not want to be responsible for other potential future children to have to go through the suffering and abuse that I did.

53:10 I don't want these pregnant women to lose their babies like my mom lost me, you know? And I just think that she realized if I really care and love, like, care for and love my newfound family as much as I do, then I have to be willing to let them go, which is I can't even imagine how, like hard that is. But it's like, I got to be willing to, to let them go in order to protect them and to end this cycle. So, yeah, it was is very brave of her. It was very selfless of her in a lot of ways. And while I still stand by, I think she is alive.

53:52 It's still a sacrifice because it kind of is. Well, I don't know what, but like with Loki, I mean, I, you know, he is alive, but he is alive now kind of in isolation, at least for her. Hopefully she can find new friends and build a new life somewhere. Yeah, but like, she doesn't get to be with the ones that gave her that seat at the table. And that's really sad, but I think she made the right choice. Yeah. Yeah. #5 If 11 could make 11111 wish to be granted to her at any point in the series, which season and version of her most needs it and why that season in particular?

54:35 Like what wish do you think she would have made? Oh my goodness. Wow. I feel like there are so many moments where having that would be really helpful. But I don't know, maybe, maybe season 3. I don't know. That's tough. There's so many things I can think really season 3 through 5, but I'll I'll say season 3 and I'm thinking it would be because like she that's when she temporarily loses her powers. She thinks that her adopted father is dead. Like that's when we think Hopper dies and he's gone and she's now being ripped apart from her closest friends and having to move all the way, like at the end of the season, move all the way to California and start a new life there.

55:43 So there's just a lot. I mean, that's like Season 3 is it's kind of, it's an interesting dichotomy because you have the fun upbeat music and you have it's like the summer vibes and all the bright colors and you're like, oh, this is so fun. But all of that is also kind of masked with this underlying tone of like heartbreak. And there, you know, there's a the big evil threat has gotten even bigger, like that giant fleshy monster in the undead army that's being built. Like, there's a lot of really, really dark things that sometimes we forget are there.

56:19 Because when I think of Season 3, I think, oh, hanging out at the mall in the pool. But you're like, also like, she thinks Hopper's gone and she's got to move across the country. And I mean, yeah, she, she gets that really awful bite. And then that causes her powers to go away. So now she feels useless. Like, she feels like, how am I going to protect anyone because they don't have my powers? So I don't know. No, I guess if I'm thinking that maybe a season 3 would be a good time for her to make a wish, what the wish would be, Man, I don't that's so hard.

56:55 I don't know what what wish could help that maybe just wishing that she I'd say wishing that she doesn't lose her powers, but maybe I wouldn't say that because the very fact that she lost her powers is what made her need to go through the Neenah project, which is what made her realize that she's not the monster. And so I kind of want her to experience that. Well, I don't know, maybe if maybe the wish could be maybe it's this wishing that Billy didn't have to die. Like if there's a way she could have wished for him to be spared.

57:36 Because a lot of the trauma that Max undergoes and really is what caused Vecna to target her in season 4 stems from the fact that Max feels incredibly guilty. Or like it's her fault that Billy died and she didn't try to do anything to stop it. And so maybe Max or Elle could wish that wish to save Billy. And I just wonder, wonder what that would have done for Max moving forward, what it would have done for all of their friendships. Like, I don't know, giving Billy an opportunity for a redemption arc, That'd be really cool.

58:21 Yeah. Maybe Billy would have insight into Vecna's mind that he could have utilized and shared with the group for good. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think that, yeah, wishing that Billy would be alive is a good one. I think maybe one could be just wishing that Hopper was alive or that she wasn't separated. Yeah, from Hopper. Yeah, that's a good one too, because. Reflecting on her childhood, it's like the only father figure she had was abusive and. Then she finally, like has it, has a dad now, and then now she thinks he's been ripped away from her.

59:12 Yeah. And like, she met her mom, like she met Terry, but her mind is gone because of all the experiments that were done on her. And so Hopper's the only, like, loving, trustworthy parental figure for her. And so, yeah, I would think that she would wish for him to be back. Yeah, well, you brought up Terry, I think also 11. I can see her making a wish. It would have probably been in Season 2, but wishing that her mom, Terry, could go back to normal, whatever that would look like, but that she wouldn't be stuck in this loop because she's just kind of having to function like a vegetable, you know?

59:55 And so that she could then have a relationship with her mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, deep questions. Deep questions number six BB. The Duffer Brothers have said that L represents the magic of childhood. Would you agree? Why or why not?

1:00:16 Yeah, I would say I disagree with that because. And why? Why Yeah, I know I'm formulating my thoughts here. I would say I disagree because then it kind of almost negates her whole storyline, her whole character arc. Like just to say that, oh, she's just, she just was meant to be a representation of the magic of childhood. And so we had to make her go away since their childhood is ending. It kind of just feels like a bit of no shade to them, but a bit of a cop out to me because it's like, well, no, She like that also implies that her childhood of enduring the different trauma and abuse that she did that that wasn't maybe somehow real or didn't actually affect her, those around her because Nope, she's just this mysterious like representation of childhood.

1:01:22 It's like, I don't know. I think that she was a real person that really endured really difficult things and had to grow in resilience because of it. And she had to figure out what it means to be a friend. She had to learn that and to learn to to like, honestly tear down different probably walls that she built up, you know, in her heart because of how much hurt she experienced. And she's learning what it means to actually love and to trust and, you know, to let people in. And. And so, yeah, I don't really like the idea that that's all her character was about was just to be a yeah, a representation of the magic of childhood.

1:02:03 I'm like, no, she's a real character. She found friends and they loved her and she sacrificed herself for them. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I I can, I can understand what they mean. I would think that maybe she represented some childhood magic in season 1 because Mike because like the way that Mike, like the kids meet Elle and the forest and then they're like trying to learn about her and they learn these different psychic abilities that she has. And and there's just this sense of wonder. Yeah. Like, as children, like, I could see how, like, the kids met her and started to form a friendship with her in Season 1.

1:02:57 Could represent, like, kind of gets to how like children around that age feel when they experience something that they don't quite understand, but they're excited about it, like, and want to learn more about it. And I think it's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, so you think she does represent the magic of childhood? I mean, yeah, but like in season 1, really. Gotcha. Because I mean. I know in the interview where they made that statement it was in the context of them trying to justify and explain why she had to go away in season 5.

1:03:38 Like because Oh well, the the kids are now entering adulthood and because Elle represented the magic of childhood, she can't be with them anymore. She has to go away so that they can move on into adulthood. I mean, I I get that, but I mean in my opinion they're really only kids for season 1 and maybe season 2. Yeah, that's the true. Like they're mostly teenagers going through like high school for the majority of the show. Season 3, they're teenagers for sure, for sure. And so it's like, I don't know, the whole childhood wonder kind of deal only was really in season 1.

1:04:23 I agree, maybe season 2. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. All right. Question #7 Number seven. OK. The name L is also an ancient Hebrew divine name for God. Do you think the Duffer's gave her this name intentionally? What connections, if any, does she have to God? Wow, that's a great question.

1:04:52 I don't think they probably did that intentionally. I mean, of course we don't, we don't know. We're speculating. I don't think that was intentional. It is. It is an interesting like point of connection. Like, what connection maybe would she have to God? Well, I mean, we keep talking about her willingness to sacrifice herself for those whom she loves. I mean, that is a representation of Jesus. We are not saying that Elle is exactly like Jesus. Of course not. Because we mentioned her weaknesses, her flaws, like, you know, Jesus was perfect.

1:05:33 And she ain't. God and she. Right, Exactly. But we're just saying, like, it's interesting that her name is an ancient Hebrew name for God. And it's like, what are connections? Yeah. Her willingness to sacrifice herself and love very much emulates God's heart and character. I'm trying to think what else? I mean, the fact that she has powers. I mean God. Yeah. Like God is like all powerful, like Almighty. So there's that. Although her she has limitations with her powers. God, we would say, does not.

1:06:11 Yeah, other other connections. Can you think of any others? I mean, I think those were the main ones I was thinking was sacrificial love. And then, yeah, like having a sort, some sort of power, granted, I mean, OK, One other one is that like both L and Jesus both experience great suffering. Yeah. I mean, yeah, Jesus is himself a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief like he. I just imagine how much compassion would swell in his heart for someone like 11. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he would have been the perfect father for her.

1:06:55 Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that's a good question. Well, that brings us to our last question, the bonus question #8 which hairdo of Elevens is her best one? OK, so we did all these deep questions and then you're going to save like the one light hearted question. OK, for the bonus one, which hairdo of hers is best? I'm going to go with season 3. I think she would have made her wish maybe in season 3. And I also think her hairdo in season 3. I think it's so cute. Like her hair's grown out a little, you know, by that point.

1:07:32 And it's she's got, she's rocking her like natural brunette curls. And, you know, just thinking about her like messing around with her hair whenever she and Max are like trying on different clothes so she can figure out what her style is, what makes her feel like her. And I just think that she seems her most confident self in some ways. In Season 3. She's finally feels like I have friends, I have my people. I'm I have like a dad now. And yeah, I don't know. I think you can. That kind of comes through with her hairdo.

1:08:08 I don't know which can I ask you which one you or may I ask you which one you may you would pick? I think I would also pick season 3. Is it sad though that immediately what I thought of was, well I know which one I would put at the bottom, which would be her season 2 here when she went when she goes to see Kali and she like slicks her hair back. Oh yeah. To just like I think it was they were, it was like a nod to like 80s goth culture. Yeah. Like so I can see why they did that like. Yeah, me too.

1:08:43 But no. But you sound like 11, no? No, just like, no, it, it didn't look good. It it was funny. It was funny, but no. Is that why you slicked your hair back like that the other day? Because you were curious what that must have felt like for 11? That's exactly what you guys he like, slicked his hair back and he's like, what do you think? And I was like, no. No, I was not channeling 11, but I just thought it would be funny. Yeah, well, that about wraps it up. Thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed our podcast, give us a review at Spotify, Apple, wherever you're listening as it helps us reach other listeners like you.

1:09:31 Totally. So our next episode will be focusing entirely on nostalgia, seeking to answer this question. How was Stranger Things able to successfully capture feelings of nostalgia, particularly for millennials, millennial, and Gen. Z audiences who maybe weren't even alive yet in the 1980s? So if you have any thoughts about what makes this show feel so nostalgic or if you have any favorite scenes that made you feel a sense of nostalgia, we would love to hear from you. You can contact us at [email protected] or on Instagram at our handle Camp Nowhere Pod.

1:10:14 Thank you all so much again, and we'll catch you on the next one. See y'all. Bye.