Harry Things: Nancy Wheeler & Hermione Granger

0:01 O. Hey y'all, and welcome back to Camp Nowhere, a Stranger Things podcast. My name is Lauren. And my name's Joel. Thank you all so much for listening. As we process all things Stranger Things. We are wrapping up a miniseries called Hairy Things where we where we've been taking a deep dive in the parallels and contrast between Harry Potter and Stranger Things. For this last episode, we're focusing on Nancy Wheeler and Hermione Granger. But first, spoiler alert, if you haven't yet seen Stranger Things in its entirety, seasons one through 5 or Harry Potter films one through 8, or Harry Potter and the Cursed Child play, be warned.

1:05 We'll be discussing a lot of spoilers, so give those a watch before giving us the listen, please and thank you. Yes, and in honor of Nancy and Hermione, go get you a fresh glass of Missus Driscoll's Lemonade. Oh man, now we got to use that sound bite again. Lemon and some butter beer with ginger and lime. Because it's time for our first segment the the back stories of these fictional girl bosses. I can take Hermione's if you fancy Nancy. Fancy Nancy. That's funny, yes, but I do got to ask honest question.

1:44 Did you think her name was pronounced Hermione while reading the books before watching the movies? Unfortunately, you are correct. What about you? So I didn't actually read the books as a kid. I know Won't Won't or Ron Ron but but I heard but I heard the name when friends of mine would talk about it after watching the movies. Amazing love that for you. I I know I'm not the only one out there who thought it was Hermione or her my one before hearing it spoken aloud in the films as in her my one favorite character.

2:23 Wow. I English good. OK, so good, so good. If there's anything my fantastic, it's talk. OK, so here's the breakdown. Hermione Jean Granger was born on September 19th, 1979 to Mr. and Misses Granger, a pair of Muggle dentist who chose her unusual name to reflect their uniqueness and intelligence. She showed early signs of magic, which puzzled her parents, but they supported her fully upon receiving her letter to Hogwarts at age 11. Before attending Hogwarts, she meticulously studied witchcraft from books, memorizing spells and gaining knowledge that surpassed many of her wizard born peers.

3:11 She was sorted into Gryffindor house in 1991 and quickly bonded with Harry and Ron after they saved her from a troll, forming the iconic trio that we think of when we think of Harry Potter. Her logical mind and research skills proved vital across different adventures, from solving the Sorcerer's Stone puzzles to identifying the Basilisk and the Chamber of Secrets and her second year and then using a time Turner in her third year. She championed different causes like house elf rights via SPEW that she Co founded Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare.

3:55 She also Co founded Dumbledore's Army and stunned at EU Ball with her transformed appearance in her fourth year. She was critically essential in helping Harry and Ron find and destroy Voldemort's different Horcruxes in the 7th and 8th films, which ultimately led to Voldemort's defeat. Post Hogwarts years, Hermione worked at the Ministry of Magic, first in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures to aid house elves, then as Deputy Head, later Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, focusing on eliminating pure blood favoritism.

4:36 She married Ron Weasley, had two children named Rose and Hugo, and eventually became Minister for Magic. Her Patronus, which is a that's a guardian or like an anti dementor shield, is an Otter, symbolizing her grace and playfulness beneath her studious exterior. I forgot that that was her patronus. No, it's it's utterly adorable. Such a great character. Did you resonate a lot with Hermione or Hermione? Yeah, 1000%. I wanted to be like Hermione for sure. Yeah. Very cute. I can definitely see that.

5:22 Yeah. And now I'm moving on to the other girl boss, Nancy Wheeler. So Nancy was born probably in 67. It's likely. So yeah, born in different time, different place. Hawkins, Indiana. She is the older sister of Mike and younger sister Holly and has parents Karen and Ted. The show begins when she's a sophomore at Hawkins High in 1983. She's struggling to balance school with her friendship with Barb and a budding romance with the popular jock Steve Harrington. Steve the Hair, Harrington. What was the the something faucet spray?

6:11 Farrah Faucet. Farrah faucet spray that he reveals to Dustin. Is it Dustin? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, about his hair. So yes, she's studious, but she's also wanting to fit in with, Yeah, like with the popular crowd. And so she gives into peer pressure sometimes. So I think it's in the second or actually in the first episode that she is wanting to go to a party at Steve's house. And Barb even tells her, like, this isn't you, Nancy. Yeah, which is really sad. Some of Barb's last words before she got abducted by the Demogorgon from the Upside Down while she was waiting at the pool.

7:03 And then that. I mean, even though that happened so early in the show, that does already affect Nancy's growth because she feels incredibly guilty for Barb's death. Because if Nancy had gone with Barr, like had left with Barr. She's a little too preoccupied with Steve. Yeah, yeah, she was. And by preoccupied, we mean losing her virginity to Steve. So. So that was happening while while Barb was kidnapped and then killed by a demogorgon. So then because of that guilt, she then teams up with Jonathan Byers to investigate and try to uncover the secrets of Hawkins Lab.

7:54 She briefly reconciles with Steve, who then joins to fight against the monster. In later seasons, Nancy pursues journalism at the Hawkins Post and tries to expose lab cover ups alongside Jonathan, who actually became her boyfriend. During season 2, she battles Mind Flayer possessions, Vecna's curse. There's rifts to the Upside Down, growing closer to Jonathan romantically while she tries to get justice for victims like Barr. And then by Season 4, she's grown into like this fearless leader who, Oh.

8:37 Yeah, we'll talk more about that for sure. Yeah, and yeah, I it's fun how her weapon of choice just continues to be guns. Yeah, like in season 4 it's a shotgun. And then in season 5, Nancy and Jonathan mutually decide to end their romantic relationship through what they called a quote UN quote UN proposal. And then after the events of Stranger Things, Nancy went on to study journalism at Emerson College in Boston, but then dropped out, opting for a journalism trainee role at the Boston Herald instead.

9:22 The actress who plays Nancy, Natalia Dyer, pushed for that arc because she argued that Nancy like has now become more independent and like hardened from battle. Natalia argued that her character Nancy would actually prefer real world reporting instead of just being in more classroom experiences. Then we now can move to our next segment, Character parallels. You may be asking yourself, why did we choose these two characters specifically? It's a valid question. Let's dive into it. Yeah. So we think both of these characters could maybe fit into the category of the investigative heroines, so.

10:13 Or if or her her one, her Rian. Ha ha, so funny heroines. The investigative heroines both have like a similar archetype. They're, they're driven, intelligent, hyper capable girls who grow into wartime strategists and yeah, courageous investigators at the heart of each of their respective friend groups. So I, I can kick us off with some of the parallels. So both of these characters are portrayed as academics. They're very observant, frequent, frequently the ones to research and identify whatever the supernatural or hidden threat is.

11:00 So for Nancy, like investigating the Demogorgon and the Upside Down, and then her mind Chinese research on monsters and spells, both characters wield their own sharp minds as their primary weapons. So another parallel is that they're both recognized for their courage, their bravery and competence. Nancy is considered a true heroine in Hawkins and Hermione embodies loyalty and intellect at Hogwarts, so they're like the the brains of their group. They often will fill the role of the strategic planner in their friend groups.

11:41 Joel, I'm curious, would you compare them more to Daphne or Velma of the Scooby-doo gang? I would definitely go Velma. Velma. Jankies. Well, yeah, because they follow the like, underappreciated female archetype. Just so sad. Speaking as a woman, we do want to be appreciated. It's true, yeah. So yeah, this kind of underappreciated woman archetype, both of them, like, are sometimes highlighted like in discussions about intelligent female characters, like when solving conflict, even though they're not ever really the main protagonist.

12:25 So like, yeah, like with Velma, she usually was the one who always solved the mystery, but she rarely ever got the credit for. It Oh my gosh, yeah, no, I totally agree. Side note here, Maya Hawk who plays Robin, she has made a statement publicly that she would love to do a live action Scooby-doo remake with her Co stars Natalia Dyer, Joe Keery and Charlie Heaton, which would be so fun. Unfortunately I doubt that will happen. It looks like McKenna Grace has already been cast as Daphne for a project like that.

13:02 OK, but I just need to think for a moment. If they did that, Charlie Heaton would be Shaggy I would assume, and then Joe Kiri would be Freddie I. Guess yeah. Yeah, I mean, you'd have to be just, I guess, wear a wig and then did I? Think she? I think she thinks she would be Velma probably, which is really interesting. Cause yeah, like Natalia Dyer would be Daphne. Probably, yeah, Yeah, but but I agree with your assessment though. I think it would make sense for for her and for Hermione to be more like a Velma type character.

13:40 Yeah. So there's also hairstyles changing quite a bit. So Hermione's hair and the first film. Wild. Yeah. And unfortunately if I go more than like 3 days without washing my hair it very much looks like like hers. Yeah, not Hagrid, but. Just like they're. Oh, I've had Hagrid days though. It's true, but there's like, love you, baby, but there's like I love you. No, like I totally have, yeah. But yeah, like there's a spectrum because there there comes a point where it becomes, well, I had. PTSD. You said Spectrum and all I can picture is just receiving another piece of mail from Spectrum.

14:26 Or seeing them at Kroger. Or yeah, or being followed by them at Kroger when it's like, bro, I already have Internet service, thank you so much. But. Having to answer 20 questions just to cancel our spectrum. Right. Anyway, anyway, so there's a spectrum. Yes, there's a spectrum where it eventually becomes first year Hermione and then later on down the road it becomes Hagrid. Exactly. Yes. Thank you for that. So yeah, Hermione's hair in the first film is I would say just about as wild as Nancy's hair in the 5th season of Stranger Things.

14:59 Outside of that though, their styles and looks are are pretty different. Like Nancy. Nancy seemed to typically opt for like dresses and heels again, not necessarily in season 5, whereas Hermione seemed to prefer jeans and a sweater whenever possible. She is Hermione Jean Grainger after all. And that's a great segue into the next segment, which is now that we've talked about character parallels, we'll do character differences. So I can start with those. So a lot of these just have to do with relationships that Hermione and Nancy have with the different characters.

15:39 So yeah, definitely their relationships with their parents. So Hermione is a Muggle born, like a Muggle born witch. So she has magic powers her parents don't. And that like even though there is that difference, she is still very close to her parents and loves writing to them throughout the books. However, that does make it even extra heartbreaking when I forgot about this but in but in Deathly Hallows in the last book and in the first of the Deathly Hallows films that like with the death eaters and Voldemort just running amok that she because of hers.

16:28 Because of Hermione's association with Harry and just wanting to protect her parents, she makes the heartbreaking decision to actually cast the obliviate charm on her parents to where it wipes her parents memories of Hermione. And even, like, took her out of pictures with them, Yeah. So in order to protect her parents, so that way if her parents ever were captured by a Death Eater or Voldemort himself, they couldn't interrogate them about Hermione. Yeah. So, yeah, switching over to Nancy. So Nancy is wealthy, popular.

17:13 She's not close with her parents. She actually kind of. She has a few moment like moments with her mom A. Few, but those come later, right? Yeah. So like, at the beginning, at the beginning, she doesn't like her parents. Like, she doesn't open up to her mom. She kind of shuts her. She shuts her mom Karen out. And just eventually. Yeah, in the show, like, even through the first season, we see that she opens up to Jonathan about her just struggling to believe that her parents even love each other.

17:53 And so here's a clip from from Season 1 where Nancy and Jonathan are talking about that parental relationship while Jonathan is showing Nancy how to wield a gun.

18:08 You ever shot a gun before? Have you met my parents? Yeah, I haven't shot one since I was 10. My dad took me hunting on my birthday. Made me kill a rabbit. A rabbit. Yeah, I guess he thought it would make me into more of a man or something. I cried for a week. Jesus, I'm a fan of Thumper. I meant your dad. Yeah, I guess he and my mother loved each other at some point, but I wasn't around for that part.

18:48 All right? Yeah, just point and shoot.

18:55 I don't think my parents. Ever loved each other? Must have married for some reason. My mom was young, my dad was older, but he had a cushy job. Money came from a good family, so they bought a nice house at the end of the cul-de-sac, started their nuclear family. Screw that. Yeah, screw that.

19:26 And so another difference would be in their personalities. OK. So Hermione is more detail oriented, relies more on past knowledge and it's like more methodical, whereas Nancy focuses a lot more on practical, like leadership and just taking action in times of crises. And so because of that, we would say that if we used a Myers Briggs, we would say that Hermione is probably like an ISTJ, whereas Nancy could be an ESTJ. We're like definitely some key differences would be between. Hermione's Introversion versus Nancy's Extroversion.

20:18 Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, OK, so another relationship is relationship to boys. So. So Nancy is definitely more boy crazy than Hermione. So a lot of Nancy's storylines revolve around boyfriends. Or like love interest? Love interest Whereas Hermione there there are rare moments where we see her being romantically interested. One of the key ones would definitely be over the jealousy that she feels over Ron and Ron's just awful girlfriend Lavender. That's where you're Ron. Ron. Ron. Yeah. Lavender Brown.

21:06 Yeah. But it was so funny though because Ron would just like try to run away from Lavender and just avoid her. Yeah. It was funny. Yeah. Yeah, totally. But yeah. And so the point with that is that boyfriends and like romance for Hermione was always secondary to her. Like she, she, it, it wasn't that she just wasn't interested in romance at all, but it's that she, she had a mission at Hogwarts. She wanted to study. She knew like when working like she wanted to work with the Ministry of Magic in the future.

21:44 She wanted like, protection for ourselves. Yeah, yes, yeah. And so she devoted herself to like her studies and to different forms of activism. But but we do got to give it to Nancy that she finally realizes in Season 5 that she does not have to choose between Steve and Jonathan and she can choose to pursue her investigative journalism career. And so she did ultimately, like I thought that was really cool that she ended up choosing neither of them and and chose to go kind of the independent Ralph.

22:19 Yeah, well, yeah. And I mean that goes back to the actresses push like Natalia Dyer. Her She probably played a role in the like, writing for the decision. Yeah, decision writing, Yeah, for. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it just, it just made sense, you know, like we, I mean, we Lauren and I both thought that Nancy would die in season 5, but. And then moreso thought that that was going to happen whenever the room around her and Jonathan was literally like melting and caving in. We're like this. Is it? This is when it happens and then and then it somehow magically stops.

23:01 But yeah, but yeah, but I mean, part of our reason for thinking Nancy was going to die is that, well, it's not so much a reason. It's more just we thought Nancy was going to die or if she somehow lived that she wouldn't end up with Jonathan. That's true, yeah. We didn't think she was going to pick either of them. Like, she just seems to, at this point in her life, she just seems to, you know, independent. She has her goals. Romance is secondary for her at that time. Yeah, OK, back to the character differences.

23:41 So expressing courage, so Hermione's courage is normally there are exceptions, but normally it's through the like kind of the back end. It's like researching and preparation like in the background. But she generally doesn't like chaotic confrontation and can even like panic or kind of withdrawal in those kinds of situations. Whereas Nancy is more physically risky, like even gutsy, like just uses guns. She finds creative ways to even I think we'll mention this later on, but like Alter like Saw her shotgun to give her a better a better chance at fighting Becna.

24:34 Yeah, or like, let's also talk about how in Season 1, when she has no idea what an upside down is or what lurks. Yeah, there she just, she just goes face forward into a tree. Yeah. Like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know if Hermione would do that. Yeah, I don't. I don't know that she would. I think she'd want to, like, figure, do some research first, right? And analyze and assess like, is this safe? Like what am I getting myself into? Yeah, she would go to Hogwarts library and she would try to find books about it now.

25:08 It might be in the forbidden section, but she would see that probably as warranted given the circumstances, right? Yeah, proving that she is willing to break rules. Right. She may or may not know someone who like has an invisibility cloak that she could totally utilize, you know? That sure would be handy.

25:28 Let's see. OK, more relationships. So we talked about parents, we talked about boys. So also relationship to like rules and authority. So that's a great segue because we just mentioned how Hermione generally is a rule follower and she, she's often the person in the trio of Harry, Ron and Hermione. She's normally the one to say, but no, you can't or you can't or whatever the accent is. I'm not great at accents that she would say like, oh, well there's this rule at Hogwarts to where we can't do this.

26:05 But at the same time, like you hinted at right, she is willing to break the rules if she thinks that the danger warrants it. So it's like she's not as gutsy to just selfishly break rules. True. Or also if she feels that it'll help achieve justice. Yeah, because I do think she's justice oriented. Oh, definitely. Which is. Well, yeah, with the. Reasons why I resonate with her quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. And so then with Nancy, she so unlike Hermione, Nancy distrust authority pretty early on and especially in Season 3 when she's working at the at the Hawkins Post.

26:52 And yeah, like, you can see that her trust and respect for authority there because of just how awful the I don't know what you call them, like news reporter or like basically her boss treated her to where she eventually just decides like, I'm just gonna investigate this. You don't have to authorize me. Like you don't have to give me permission. Like I'm just gonna investigate this myself. Right. And she'll do that though, despite whatever consequences may come. Yeah, because if you remember, what ended up happening is she and Jonathan both got fired from the Hawkins Post.

27:36 Yeah. But The thing is, is that even though they got fired, they still investigated. I don't know if she saw it as worth it. Yeah. She's like, people's lives are at stake. Like, I'm not just going to sit around and not do anything. Yeah. Yeah, and then lastly, their motivations. So Hermione is primarily motivated by probably the main things are justice, like you said, also learning. The girl loves learning. She loves being in the library. Can you see why resonated with this character? Yeah, yeah.

28:14 And so, yeah, she really just loves learning justice, doing what's quote, UN quote, right, according to the rules. Whereas Nancy, at least in the beginning, I think she definitely grows out of it. But in the beginning, her primary motivator is probably guilt and grief over Barb's death. And that drives her to try to. I like both to find what the cause is of, like why Barb died and what these weird things are happening, but also maybe to try to kind of maybe offer close closure for herself. Because if she's able to find the cause of why Barb went missing, though, yeah, yeah.

29:10 Like if she was able to find that, then maybe if she could stop it, that would give her a sense of closure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. She wants to expose truth and that that is an honorable thing. She thinks that if kind of like what we said, she decided to go forward and investigating in Season 3 even though her boss said no because she feared that in action. Like if I don't do anything, then people are going to get hurt or maybe even killed. And so yeah, I really respect though that both of them.

29:44 Both Hermione and Nancy seem to prioritize justice over their own personal comfort. Hermione champions like we mentioned how self rights, she fights tyranny. Nancy exposes cover ups for the vulnerable and seeks justice for Barb. Life crises kind of transform them from being, you know, like naive girls to ultimately principled activist women. Yeah, and Speaking of activism, hashtag justice for Barb. Yeah, here's a clip from Beyond Stranger Things where Natalia Dyer, Charlie Heaton, Joe Carey and Brett Gelman are interviewed about Barb's funeral and getting justice for her.

30:31 We started our conversation with Barb's parents and and it seems fitting that I at least ask you, 'cause we obviously put her to rest. And do we believe there's justice for Barb? I do think Nancy's goal is to kind of at least get the truth out to her parents, at least to like, you know, so they don't keep looking to kind of just know that it's like that it's over. Have closure. And have closure for sure. I don't know if like in the grand scheme of things, you can say there's. Yeah, what does justice for Barb really mean?

31:00 Hey, I don't know. But what, you know, we should do is let's see what Shannon Purser, who played Barb, has to say about closure 'cause we have a little interview with her as well on our TV, to the TV emotional in episode 9. There's this big funeral finally for for Barb. It's really heartbreaking watching, you know, her parents kind of had this realization sort of of what happened to her. It's weird that I feel so attached to like this little family that I've, I've never really met. I think it's, it's such a sweet gesture to see that there were a lot of people that cared about Barb.

31:35 It's very weird to have a funeral and to like see people crying over over pictures of yourself. That's like one thing that that kind of like I laughed at was just all these like baby pictures of me and photos of me from when I'm like 5 and six years old. And those are actually like my baby pictures, my childhood pictures, memories from my actual life. And and now they're like a part of of Barb. 'S life too. That's. Cool. That's the best. Yeah. I remember just walking into the house and seeing all those photos and just being like, like so sweet.

32:10 And also the, when we went did the funeral scene, it was like a super hot day and we were wearing all these, like heavy coats. But the booklet. Oh yeah. A little flyer. Yeah. It was so sweet. There's like a little messages. Barbara Holland, love that we all sign. I, I have mine. We all like signed it. And I have this Barb token. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I have to just say, I mean, just 'cause that's a big thing. It's like you have this character who you know, a minor major takes plays a major effect on both really what happens in Season 1, but even more so and what happened in the sequel.

32:39 I mean, it's pretty crazy and a beautiful thing and it ties it all together and and really became the mission for everybody. Amazing. So true that Barb, though a minor character, really served to advance the overall plot of Stranger Things quite a bit. All righty now let's move into our next segment here. Favorite character moments? I can kick it off with my favorite Hermione moments. The first one that immediately comes to mind for me is in the third film, The Prisoner of Azkaban, when she punched Draco Malfoy in the face.

33:22 Look who's here. Come to see the show. You, you foul a lot of them. Evil little cockroach A mining. No, it's not worth it. Are you OK? Let's go quick. Let's go run the. Word to anyone. Understood. That felt good. Not good. Brilliant. Brilliant indeed. Yes, OK, my next one has to be when Hermione is dancing with Harry in the Deathly Hallows Part 1 film. She had been just feeling really down and frustrated about not being able to figure out the next clue to lead them to the next horcrux. And plus Ron who was clearly like.

34:16 It's pretty obvious that is her love interest at this point. He had abandoned them temporarily and so Harry could tell that she was, yeah, just not feeling herself. So he asks her to dance with him to a Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds song that had come on the radio. Just such a sweet moment to highlight their friendship and also just such a good song. It's called Oh Children if you haven't heard it, definitely recommend. Joel and I have slow danced to that one for sure. Joel, what would be your favorite Hermione moment?

34:51 So before that, just wanted to quickly say I hadn't actually heard that song before until I watched the movie. And that was really, yeah, that was a sweet moment, especially because the, the like, the film is just really dark. And so like, I mean, it's, it's the Deathly Hallows. It's like Voldemort in the, in the Death Eaters are just running rampant. And so to have this moment, well, also because like you said, Ron abandoned them. And so like Harry and Ron had a falling out for a while. And so now, like Harry and Hermione's best friend is gone, it's just nice to have this sweet moment together to try to lift the spirits a little.

35:40 Bit I know I don't know if it's a hot take or not, but like that, that may be one of my absolute favorite moments in the entire series. I I would think that's probably not a hot take, but I think that is like, but that's a very sweet moment for sure. It does make me wonder, though a little off script here, is this. Was that in the books? I mean obviously I don't think the song was mentioned in the book but like but is but did they dance in the book? You know, this is so bad I can't remember. It's been a while since I've reread those books.

36:16 Part of me thought that it was not in the books. Yeah, that may have been just an artistic choice to add it to the film, and I'm really glad I'm. Glad they did. It's it's a really, really. Normally I'm annoyed by artistic choices or like artistic liberties, but if that was an artistic liberty, I think it was really well done. It was well done regardless. Give me artistic liberties or give me deathly. Hallows. Sorry, this is how my mind works. I'm so sorry.

36:48 My my face has been in my hands for the past like 3 seconds. So anyway. Yeah. And on that note, back to my original question, what would be your favorite Hermione moment? OK, so mine I think would definitely be. So I watch first of all, I watch the I watch the books, I read the books. You don't watch books, you read books. I read the books and then watch the movies. And so for me, when reading Order of the Phoenix, the fifth one, yeah, the fifth one, which I had to do, like I had to retry that one because that one's the behemoth, that one's the largest one, this.

37:26 Is why I married you because you will just say words like behemoth and regular conversation. That is wild. I mean, a book, a book that's over 800 pages, it's a behemoth. It is, yeah. So yeah, when reading the book,

37:48 we're near the end of the book. So this is before the Ministry of Magic fight. Harry gets caught, I think Harry, Yeah, Harry gets caught by Professor Umbridge. And so Harry is in Umbridge's office. And then Hermione tries to help Harry. And so Umbridge, like, their, their plans are basically about to fall apart. And then Hermione decides to answer Ambridge's question of like, what are you trying to hide? Like, what are your plans? And Hermione just hatches an idea and just says, OK, I'll show you.

38:33 Like, we give up, I'll show you what it is. And the chapter ends with them walking out of Hogwarts, like Harry, Hermione.

38:45 Yeah. And Umbridge and I think a few others maybe, but I don't remember because it's been a while. But yeah, they're leaving Hogwarts. And I'm just like, I don't know what's happening right now. Like, what do you mean? Where are you going? And then it turns out that they learned about earlier in the book, they learned about Hagrid's half brother, who's a giant named Grop, who lives, I think, in the in the forest, right. Yeah. As one does, as one does. Giants just live there, apparently. And so you eventually put together that Hermione is going to pretend like she's going to lie and say that.

39:29 Oh well, our big plan, like our big weapon to try to defeat like Dumbledore or something, was this giant named Grob. When in actuality that was not their plan. Instead, Hermione was using Grob to distract Umbridge so that way they could escape Umbridge and then go to the Ministry of Magic. She's so clever. It's very clever and so yeah, unfortunately, I guess it's unfortunately Grob didn't kill Umbridge. I I, I mean everyone hates Umbridge. Who actually likes Umbridge? I think if COVID was a person.

40:10 Probably the Death Eaters do, which is pretty telling. Yeah, that they would like Umbridge, but yeah, so yeah, Umbridge wasn't killed, but she was definitely frazzled after after Dumbledore. We did a little research. Dumbledore actually saved Umbridge from the centaurs that came after Grop. Do you think her own cats liked her? I mean like, like the cat, like the actual cats or the cats that were on her plates and like everything else. All of the cats. Any cats? No. No. I yeah, they yeah, they would hate Umbridge completely.

40:59 I mean, would you agree? Oh, probably, yeah. Yeah, her cats, man. How many cats did she have? I don't know. That's wild. We'll have to research that later on. But yeah. So Grob didn't actually kill Bridge. She was carried away by centaurs. Wow, what a crazy sentence and what a wild time to be. That's a great scene. OK, now for Nancy. So my favorite moment would have to be again, the first one that came to mind probably in season 2 at the snowball dance when she she can see that Dustin, he's like looking around the room.

41:44 He's sad he doesn't have anyone to dance with after having been rejected by a different few different girls. A few different times, yeah. Oh. My goodness, I can't remember. She shows up again in season 5 too, right? You remember that? Yeah. Yeah. At the graduation. That's really gonna bug me. I can't. Was it graduation? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, he had been rejected. But where? Where? But like all his friends, they all had somebody to dance with. And so he probably feels the sting of that even more so then Nancy.

42:17 She leaves the little, like, juice station she was at. She goes over to Dustin, asks him if he wants to dance. And it really just melted my heart to see him go from, like, blubbering tears to just the biggest smile on his face, you know? And it's just, it's just really sweet. Yeah. And one quick thing about that, too, is that that was probably especially sweet for Dustin because, well, it was sweet for Dustin to have a smile on his face through that. Because Season 2, near the end of Season 2, is when the romances with Mike and Elle and with Lucas and Max begin to solidify more.

43:00 And so Dustin probably felt kind of left out as well 'cause he was starting to sense that like two of his closest friends are now in relationships. I know but just a quick side question. I'm wondering like which is worst Dustin situation where he tried asking girls to dance and they like either mocked him or said no so he doesn't have anyone to dance with. Or Will where a girl comes up to ask him to dance but she does so by saying hey zombie boy do you want to dance? Like why is nobody talking about this like?

43:39 And what happened to her? Oh, I don't know. Like, we don't know. I don't know, because they danced together, right? Yeah, maybe something happened to her off screen, I don't know, but yeah. Lots of things happened. Exactly. But yeah, which is worse? Like for someone to come up to you and be like zombie boy, would you want to dance or to not have anyone to dance with? I don't know. Both aren't great. I mean they're both not great, but to me I feel like it would probably be better to try and get rejected rather than I mean just speaking from a guy's perspective than from like a girl to approach.

44:16 But like use a name that will didn't like. Oh, no, yeah. That wasn't like an endearing nickname. People were using that to bully him. And so I just thought that was kind of odd that she would lead with like, zombie boy, do you want to dance? And it's like, do you even care about him or do you know his name or like, I don't know. Anyway, that's just again, how my mind works. Side tangent, All right. And then my next one has to be in Season 3. So in front of the Star Court Mall, Nancy is shooting at Billy's car that is, like, dramatically speeding toward her.

44:57 And she's doing that in order to try to protect Jonathan and the kids when they couldn't get her car to start. And it turns out it's because, well, we presume that Billy removed a key. I don't know much about cars but a part of the car that was keeping it from running. She's just so fearless, was full on prepared to sacrifice herself for them in that moment. Like honestly, again, not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I personally feel like Nancy is the true leader of the group. Like earlier, that's one of the ways you described her like a, a leader.

45:33 And I, I don't know, like people typically, I think assume that it's Mike and he has some, well, he has some, he developed some leadership qualities. But like, over time, I really feel like Nancy kind of became the one to group everyone together and to kind of brief for things, debrief things. Like she just kind of has a, a leadership role. And people listen to her. And they listen to her. She's very committed, like commanding. Not necessarily bossy all the time. Yeah, but she she just, she carries command.

46:04 You're like, wow, she seems like a girl with a plan. I can follow after that. So that's another reason why we thought that she was gonna die in Season 5, because that. Would carry a ton of weight. Because it would carry a ton of weight. It would. It would devastating. It would. It would devastate the party. It would also, from a writing perspective, it would create a lot of tension because now, I mean, it's definitely not the same thing, but it's kind of like when Dumbledore died. It's like, OK, now our leader is dead.

46:37 Now there's this tension of who fills the gap, right? What's gonna happen? Now step up. That would have. That would have had to be the case if Nancy had passed. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, Nancy's such a great character. Yeah, but do you? Think that's a hot take? Like to say that she's the like, real leader of the group? Oh, no, no. No, I I think she, I don't think that's a hot take. I think she's definitely the leader. OK. For sure. Period. Yeah, yeah. I think my favorite Nance moment is probably in Season 4, episode 4.

47:10 Dear Billy, the best episode? Best episode easily. Full stop. Yep. I think, yeah, definitely the episode. It's the part where Nancy and Robin are running away from the asylum. I think we can beat him. What to the car? OK I'm warning you right now I have terrible port patient. Like it took me 6 months longer to learn to walk than all the other babies. Oh my baby. Oh my God, Cinderella, you. Dropped your shoe. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Cinderella, you forgot your shoe. Great choice. I love that scene too because, you know, Nancy and Robin are finally becoming friends because they had like some tension before that.

47:56 It didn't really seem initially like Nancy cared for her or she seemed like annoyed with her or who knows if it was jealousy or what. But now they seem like they're actually becoming friends, and they combine their geniuses in that moment to put the puzzle pieces to get together to like, figure out the key to saving Max from Vecna. Absolutely incredible. Quick side plug here, I'm actually currently reading a Stranger Things novel entitled One Way or Another that is considered Canon. The author actually has contributed to writing of the TV series and it's set in between seasons 4:00 and 5:00, and it features Nancy and Robin as like the main characters to solve a serious mystery in Hawkins.

48:41 So such a fun read, highly recommend. Yeah, might have to add that to my to be read. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're going to be in Little Women for a minute, love. So. But yeah, you should totally read it after these Little women.

49:00 Wow, you liking it, huh? Oh yeah, call Joey. Joey. I feel like we also have to mention Nancy's willingness to saw down a rifle. So like I mentioned earlier, yeah. So that way she'd have a higher chance of being able to hit Vecna dead on at the end of Season 4. That's quite the epic. Scene. Oh my goodness. Yeah, but also confusing. Like I would love to know how they were able to shoot at him multiple times and set him on fire without killing him. Doesn't seem super realistic, right? Because apparently what's even more powerful than guns and fire is a middle-aged woman with an axe.

49:47 Apparently. Yeah. See, those things just weren't as powerful as Joyce using an axe. OK yeah, but in all reality they probably already had a season 5 contracted and so they needed becna alive. Well, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, yeah, there wouldn't been a ton of places to take the show if they did defeat him in season 4. Yeah. All righty. Well, I think it's time for our last segment in this series, our lightning scar around. So I it's my turn to ask you Joel, a series of questions to get your honest reactions and opinions.

50:29 For context, friends, those of you listening, Joel has not seen these questions. You're going to get get his real unfiltered thoughts. So here we go, question #1. Number one. Who is more likely to correct your grammar in a text?

50:50 Nancy. You're Hermione. That's such a funny. Question. Gut answer. Who would correct? Me, I mean, my gut answer would be Hermione, because I mean, I think of the clip of how do you say Leviosa, not Leviosa exactly or whatever. It's like, OK, like if she's going to do that then she's probably going to correct grammar. Yes, I that's my answer as well. But like, it is a fun question because you have to think about Nancy is the editor. True of the. Newspaper, so she also places high value on grammar.

51:22 But I agree, I think Hermione, yeah, OK #2 #2 if they swapped lives, who do you think would fit in better with the other's friend group? So Nancy with Ron and Harry or Hermione with the Hawkins gang? That's such an interesting question. I like that question, so do a little little life swap. OK, so I'm just trying to picture it. OK, so Nancy with Harry and Ron. Yep, Yep. That's such a weird thing. Or Hermione with would it be Oh OK, well if she's taking Nancy's place then she wouldn't be the kids age like she would be like Jonathan and Steve's age, right?

52:05 I. Mean I I guess so, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean like she wouldn't be if they're switching. But I mean, they all kind of all I. Mean, I mean, they do, but like I think Hermione would definitely have an easier time with the kids. Like if it was like Max and Dustin and Lucas. Interesting really. But but to actually answer the question though, I would think, I mean I would think Nancy probably would. Nancy would fit in better with Ron and Harry. I think so because. Yeah, because with Nancy, well, I'm thinking with Hermione, like if Hermione was like with Robin and Jonathan and Steve, I mean, I don't think Steve, like Hermione wouldn't have really expressed romantic interest in either of the boys, probably.

53:07 And I think, yeah, I don't know. I think it would just be harder for her. Whereas with Nancy, her gutsiness, I think what if it in with Harry and Ron, I think especially with Harry. Oh, yeah, no, that's, that's good. That's a good answer. Good answer, good answer. No, thanks. OK, question #3 #3 do you think Hermione should have ended up with Ron Weasley and that Nancy should have broken up with Jonathan in order to choose singleness? Why or why not? So basically, do you agree with their respective writers choices for how they ended up romantically?

53:51 I think that Nancy should have been single, yes. So I agree with that. OK. I think Hermione should have been with Harry. Yeah. OK, OK. Could you unpack that? Why do you think that? Well, I mean, you see. I mean, I think this is such a polarizing thing for people like, like with our good friend Erica, I remember I asked her a similar question and I was on the same boat as you, where when I distinctly remember when I was reading those books and watching those movies, like I really thought that she would end up with Harry and and Erica was like, whoa, no, She's like, she and Ron are end game.

54:33 Like she was very. We love you, Erica, if you're listening. But you But yeah, but why do you think? I think. Harry. Well, I'm just trying to remember. Yeah. Because through the books, I think you see Hermione like, caring for Harry a lot more. Like they're just situations where that happens.

54:57 Yeah, I I mean they both have like an interest in studying magic. And wanting to end up at the ministry. At the Ministry, yeah. But I will say though, it's hard. I will say though, I appreciate the opposites attract thing with Hermione and Ron for sure. Yeah. Because something that I do like about them is that Hermione is just really good with magic and Ron is just respectfully, not as much, not as much, but they still love each other like canonically. And so, yeah, it's hard, but I think. Behemoth and canonically.

55:40 You're just keeping this. You're just keeping tabs I. Am yeah. OK, but final answer, I think I would still say Hermione with Harry. I think. I think like the dancing scene, the scene where Harry sees Hermione at the ball, It's the fourth book. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I just felt like there was something there. I thought it was going to be, I don't know, loosely like a Ross and Rachel kind of thing where like they there's interest between them, but they go through different love interest before they wind up being together.

56:23 I wasn't surprised that Hermione and Ron ended up together. I felt like that's the direction that the book was or that like the book was trying to make it go. But I think that Hermione could have gone with Harry. OK, don't quote me on this, but I am fairly certain that years later, JK Rowling ended up confirming that she wishes she would have written Hermione and Harry as the end game. Couple. Oh man. Yeah, I could see it. Yeah, all right, but and, And then you agree Nancy made the right choice.

57:00 Yeah, OK, sweet question #4 #4 who has spent more time overall at the library, Nancy or Hermione? Hermione. You think Hermione? I would think so. I mean, I think in every book she's at the library. That's true. Yeah, I know. Nancy does go a lot though for her research and things. She does, but I think for Hermione the library. I think for Nancy the library is a tool. OK, we have this problem. Let's go to the library, right? I feel like for Hermione, it's like, I want to have fun, let's go to the library.

57:42 So. Like, like us, like what we would do for, like what we would. Do it's like date night at the library? Yes, yeah. Which is funny because we literally are going to be doing that next weekend. Yes. There's like a a book sale happening at the library, y'all? We're so excited about it. Yeah. So you think Hermione spends more time there? I think I'd say so, yeah. Like honestly, they probably just had a cot there for her. So it's like, oh, sweetie, you've been here for a long time, you need to rest your eyes.

58:12 Just sleep. Here she's like, this is, I have an extra room here. Yeah. OK, so where are we at? Question #5 #5 Who is more likely to break the rules for the right reasons, Nancy or Hermione? I feel like they both would, if I have to pick one, like break rules for the greater good. Kind of, yeah. Like breaking rules for the right reason. I mean, I think they both would. If I had to pick one, probably Nancy. OK. I think. She'd be more willing to do it. I think she'd be quicker to do it. I think she would have less hesitation.

58:55 I agree. To do it. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think both of them would be willing. Oh, definitely. If the circumstances, yeah. Cuz her mind. Tiny did. Sometimes she did, yeah. Yeah, but Nancy did, maybe even more often. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah, OK, good answer #6. Number six. Whose Ted talk would you rather attend? OK, Nancy's How to expose a small town government conspiracy or Hermione's time travel ethics. And extra credit what I learned with the Time Turner. Which one would I rather attend? Yeah.

59:36 That's so hard because one of those sounds like it would actually be applicable to our current situation in our nation, whereas the other one, yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:55 I mean, the time turn, the time Turner one does sound interesting. The government one does sound more sounds like it's sitting closer to home. You know. Yeah, pretty applicable. Could be really useful. Yeah, do I want, do I want to learn something useful or something that would just be fun? Do I get to keep a time Turner? Do I get to use one? I mean, I don't know if there there was more than one. I don't know that she'd want to give up the one that she has. She'd probably let you see it though, yeah.

1:00:31 Let's do the time Turner. Really. Let's have fun. Wow, OK, I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, that would be really fun. Yeah, yeah. OK, question #7. #7. Who is more likely to survive, Nancy against Voldemort and Hogwarts, or Hermione against Vecna in the Upside Down? Does Hermione have a wand? Like does she have power? Like she can she use magic? Yeah. That, I mean, I think Hermione would have better, yeah. Like Hermione versus Vecna. Like I think Hermione would definitely, if she was, if she lived, she definitely would survive longer.

1:01:21 I agree. But I mean like. She's better at evaluating risks and knowing when to say yes or no. I mean I'm sorry but like you and I both were shocked watching season 5 when Nancy just went full on like using almost like a machine gun and it didn't even seem like she had a bulletproof vest or any kind of shield. She's shooting at the military who had been actively hunting them down. And she just like, was. I don't know. I mean, it's seemed epic. But also, she was vulnerable and putting herself in quite a bit of risk.

1:01:56 It is shocking that she did not die. Yeah. Or at least be incarcerated. Right, exactly. Killing members of the military. Right now, being held accountable for your actions. What a concept. Jinx. Jinxies. Jinxies, Jinxies. I'll stop so I regret that. You are dismissed. I regret that. OK. But yeah, I mean, like in a Nancy versus Voldemort situation, like I'm just assuming Nancy's holding a gun and then Voldemort just uses Expelliarmus to just get rid of the gun. And then Avada Kadaver to get rid of.

1:02:35 Her and then and then you're done, right? Yeah, Yep. OK. I agree. That's a good answer. Question #8 Number. 8. So this one's just a Nancy question. OK, Why do you think Vecna chose to reveal his plan to Nancy specifically? So season 4 he reveals his plan to Nancy. Why did he do that? Why did he choose? Her physically reacting to this question because we've talked about this. Like I just evoked so much stress in him well. It. I'm being such a Good Wife, right? You're being, you're being so helpful.

1:03:14 Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just physically reacting to this because, I mean, you and I have talked about this like, off of the podcast, and I just feel like the writing wasn't good to, like, help us understand why, like, the Season 5 riding specifically, OK? Yeah. Like, season 4 was excellent. Season 5 wasn't great, OK.

1:03:42 And I was hoping maybe season 5 would help us understand a little bit more about why I don't. Wait, this is another reason I'm remembering now. This is another reason why we thought that Nancy, we thought that Vecna had like targeted her that in choosing in season 4 to reveal his plan, it's like, oh, maybe I'm sorry, I'm no, I'm answering a little bit of your question, but it's like maybe he's he's on to her. He doesn't like that she is so investigative and she has been figuring out so many clues.

1:04:13 And so he's like now targeting her of like, I, I'm going to get rid of you. But then that didn't really seem to translate in Season 5. It didn't, I mean, it didn't happen because. Didn't the vision say that? Well, actually, no, we don't actually see the the full vision that Nancy sees. But later Nancy says that Mike and Holly and Karen die. Doesn't mention her dad.

1:04:42 Yeah. Oh, Ted.

1:04:45 Why? I mean, I don't know.

1:04:53 What did she see? Did she see the the X thing form like the X chasm form over? Yeah, the rift, like, yeah, from like the earthquake. That wasn't an earthquake. Like is that what she? Said the the clock chimes like 4 chimes. And she saw the rift. She saw it seemed like she seemed distressed because it looked like he showed her that pretty much everybody in her family was dead. Yeah. And then that there were monsters coming into the real Hawkins. And she said, not the Upside Down Hawkins. Yeah. Like they're Hawkins.

1:05:31 Yeah, I, I mean, the only reason I can really think of is that for Season 4, they wanted to, they needed to pick, they wanted to reveal to the audience what Vecna was doing. They wanted to foreshadow the chasm or the rift that would happen. And so I think maybe the writers decided that the best way to foreshadow it, like to show the audience that would be for Vecna to reveal that part of his plan to one of the characters. And so maybe he chose Nancy because Nancy, I'm trying to remember, was Nancy at the Creole mansion at the time?

1:06:19 No, no, it was. It was when they're crossing over into the Upside Down through the trailer. Yeah, but then he puts her in a trance. Yeah, so he can reveal. Reveal the plan his. Plan. Yeah.

1:06:38 I mean, from a writing perspective, that helps to set up the tension of like, now we finally are understanding a little more about what Bechna is doing now that's going to bolster the party to like stop Beckna. But why Nancy specifically? I don't know. It just seems like she. It just seems like Beckna would have revealed that to 11 or Max. Well, you have to remember, I believe this was episode 7, the massacre at Hawkins Lab, and he is simultaneously revealing his plan to Nancy while like he knows that 11 is going through that whole Nina project and she's starting to figure out and remember his whole eerie monologue to reveal his motivations of why he did what he did back in 1979.

1:07:32 Right, right. But but also like the proximity thing, like 11's not there. So like Bagna couldn't have done that. Like you learn. Right. She's in like physically in Nevada. In Nevada and then in a pizza dough freezer. Piggybacked from a pizza dough freezer. What? Yeah, that's such a good question. I don't. I don't really know. Yeah. My best guess is what I kind of already mentioned is like he knows that she is pretty good at putting pieces together and that she was starting to like figure some things out.

1:08:12 And so he was like, well, then I'm just going to go ahead and put the puzzle pieces together for her. But kind of in doing that, communicate to her of like, I'm watching you, I know I'm on to you and you're now at higher risk. Yeah. Because he didn't like that she was getting closer and closer to figuring out his plan. I will say though, like without getting too deep into it, there's also just this villain, like, I don't know, archetype or just obsession with like, OK, I'm about to destroy the world, but before I do it, I'm going to reveal all of my plan because I want you to, I don't know, validate how smart I am or be afraid of me.

1:08:56 I mean, we watched Zootopia too. Yeah, we did. Recently, and of course, we're not going to spoil the plot, but like, the antagonist just reveals the plan. It's just like, yeah, like, I don't understand why you have to reveal your plan before actually doing it. Like, I don't know if it's the need for validation or wanting people to be afraid of them or. I don't know. So I'm wondering if part of that is just like, oh, I'm evil. I want to create this chasm and Hawkins, I need to tell someone that I'm about to do that.

1:09:31 Yeah. I don't know. No, I think that the yeah, that, that is certainly part of it. Yeah. OK. So there's one last kind of just bonus question. Bonus question. Question #9 #9 if Camp Nowhere hosted a live episode with one of them, who would derail the outline more with passionate side tangents, Nancy or Hermione? So like we get to have one of them as a guest on our podcast, but we're recording it live. Who would who would kind of have more side tangents? That's a good question. My initial thought would be Nancy.

1:10:10 OK. I don't know. I feel like Hermione would want to know, like, OK, what's the script? Do I need to prepare anything? Yeah, I think she would probably I'm trying to think of. OK, and also Nancy is really good friends now with Robin, who is like the queen of side tangents and not staying on track. So she maybe she's been somewhat influenced by Robin in that way. ADHD Totally. Yeah. That'd be an interesting band name. That would be. You can add it to your. List. I will add it to the. List do it. I was just trying to think of what's the in in Harry Potter.

1:10:48 What's the annoying news paper lady? Like Rita Skeeter. Rita Skeeter. What a name. Yeah. What a name, but I'm trying to think of like. More like they should read a get her. Yeah, read a. But yeah, like I would think that in their universe, like if Hermione was interviewed, OK, that she would probably want to like have something prepared and know what the script is. Yeah, though I mean, I would think that if the subject of house elves came up that she would definitely go off, like go off the yeah, off.

1:11:32 Team so if it if it's a topic that she feels very strongly about, she may be more prone to go on side tangents. Especially if like if Rita Skeeter what were to like insult house elves or do something against house elves, then Hermione I think would definitely. It's that justice side of her. I love that. Yeah. Well, that concludes our Lightning score round. Thank you for participating. Oh, I thank you and thank you all so much for listening. Give us a review on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Audible, Amazon, wherever you're listening so that we're able to reach more listeners like you.

1:12:14 Totally. So we have wrapped up hairy things. So our next episode, our IP, I know it was so fun it. Was yeah, it was fun being hairy with you. Absolutely, yeah. Our next episode will be focusing entirely on 11 as it's our. 11. Episode as a podcast. So if you have any thoughts about 11's character in the show, we'd love to hear from you. You can contact us at [email protected] or on Instagram at our handle. Camp Nowherepod. Thank you all so much again and we'll catch you on the next one. See y'all peace.

1:13:20 The.