The Moms of Stranger Things

0:20 Well, hey y'all, and welcome back to Camp Nowhere, a Stranger Things podcast. My name is Joel. And my name is Lauren. We are so thankful you're here to listen to us process all things. Stranger Things. In this episode, in light of the fact it was just Mother's Day, we're going to be focusing entirely on the moms of Stranger Things. We plan to contrast their occasional lack of awareness with their consistent Fierce Protection award. Different mom superlatives, discuss how motherhood is portrayed in the show, and also share our favorite mom moments before a lightning round.

0:59 Absolutely. But first, of course, spoiler alert. If you haven't yet watched Stranger Things in its entirety, which is seasons one through 5, or if you are avoiding learning information about Stranger Things, the first shadow play, be warned. We will be discussing a lot of spoilers, so be sure to give the show a listen, or a watch rather, before giving us a listen. And now it's time for the question of the hour. Who is the real mom of Stranger Things?

1:34 Here we go. All mom line up. It's a butter load of comedy. Mother knows best at 10, followed by my three moms at 10:30. Make room for Mama at 11 and then the all time classic Noah's Matriarch. Wrapping it up at 11:30. Mama, he's so hilarious you won't want to miss a minute of it. Mom. Mommy. Mama. Is Joyce the obvious answer, or is the show using multiple moms to show different kinds of care, loss, and protection? His motherhood more than biology? We will dive into all these questions, but first we got to look at the brief backstories of each of the main Mamas in the show.

2:18 So first we got the OG Joyce Byers, Joyce's will, and Jonathan's fiercely protective single mom divorced from Lonnie Byers. But we don't talk about Lonnie. She starts the series as a struggling mother in Hawkins and becomes one of the main adults who recognizes that something supernatural is happening, especially after Will disappears. From the first shadow play, we learn that her maiden name is Maldonado and she attended Hawkins High in the late 1950s. Ambitious and creative, she was involved in the school production of Dark of the Moon and wanted to leave Hawkins for a future in theater or college.

3:01 Yes. And next we have Karen Wheeler. Karen. Yeah, Karen is Nancy, Mike and Holly's mother, and Ted Wheeler's wife. She is mostly unaware of the strange events happening in Hawkins at first, but she's a caring, rule setting mom who grows more suspicious as the danger around her family becomes harder to ignore. Also, from the first shadow play, we learned that her maiden name is Childress and she also attended Hawkins High in the late 1950s. She was a popular cheerleader in 1959 who was dating Ted at the time.

3:40 He was a popular jock in school, believe it or not. It's kind of hard for me to that, but yeah. So that's how they ended up together. And let's not forget about Terry Ives, even though the Duffers did. Terry is Jane's Elevens biological mom. She was a test subject in Hawkins Lab in Hawkins Labs MK Ultra experiments and after trying to rescue her daughter, she was subjected to horrible electroshock therapy and left in a kind of catatonic. That is Electro shocking. It isn't.

4:21 I'm sorry. Oof. Oof. From the prequel novel, considered Canon by the way, Suspicious Minds by Gwenda Bond, we learned that Terry was a waitress and a college student at Indiana University in Bloomington IN Go Hoosiers, which also happens to be Lauren's hometown. In 1969. She was idealistic, socially aware, and influenced by the Vietnam era climate of protest and distressed of authority. She signed up to do the MK Ultra testing to earn extra money and to contribute to science. She became pregnant by her boyfriend Andrew, who was chosen in the draft to be deployed in the Vietnam War, which is where he ultimately was killed.

5:04 This leads us to believe that he, Andrew, is 11's biological father. The book shows Terry as brave, stubborn, morally grounded. She risk her own safety to try to expose Brenner's abuses and to protect her friends, even as she's being used by the system she trusted. This makes 11's origin story feel less like a clinical experiment and more like a deeply personal family tragedy rooted in Terry's love, her resistance, and ultimate defeat at the hands of Hawkins Lab. Yeah, and if y'all haven't read that book, I First off apologize that we spoiled a lot of it.

5:45 But you should still read it because it is a fun read. It's really good. OK Next up we have Claudia Henderson. Claudia is Dustin's loving single mom. Wow I would have missed that. Like, what is her first name? I had no idea, Claudia. I had no idea it was Claudia. Yeah, I'm probably going to feel that way about a few others here actually. Yes, so Claudia is warm, supportive, very present in Dustin's life, often shown as one of the more openly affectionate parents in the show. From the first shadow play, we learned that her maiden name is Yount.

6:22 I think that's how you pronounce it. And she also attended Hockens high in the late 1950's. The play suggests that Claudia and Walter Henderson knew each other in high school and that Walter came from the Henderson family that owned a liquor store in Hawkins. We learned that Walter is Dustin's father, but we don't necessarily know why Dustin was raised in his absence. That is interesting. Another mom who we see is where Erica gets her sass from is Sue Sinclair. Didn't know her first name either, but yeah, Sue Sinclair.

6:58 She is Lucas and Erica's mom. She is a supportive working mother who appears to be in a healthy marriage to Charles Sinclair. Shout out to healthy marriage. From the first shadow play, we learned that her maiden name is Anderson and she also attended Hawkins High in the late 1950s. She was popular and this is where she started dating Charles Sinclair. From the prequel novel Stranger Things. Lucas on the line. We learned that Sue grew up going to church and playing double Dutch jump rope. Yes, and I also read that book recently.

7:31 And something else to mention is that Sue is a nickname. Her name is actually Susan, but she's goes. By Sue. And so we have a different Susan now we have Susan Hargrove. So Susan is Max's mom and she's stepmom to Billy Hargrove as she is married to Billy's abusive father. She's known as a strained, imperfect parent who works hard and like, has a difficult home life and yet still cares very deeply for Max. So Joel, do you think there is one main mom of Stranger Things? I'm curious. That's an interesting question because at first, like I would think, well, obviously it's Joy's, but then that's, I mainly think of that because of Season 1 because Joyce is definitely at the forefront of Season 1.

8:23 But then, as the show progresses, we begin to see that each of these moms, for better or for worse, actually plays a significant role. Yeah, yeah, I I would definitely agree. I mean, these moms help shape the younger characters we know and love into who they are, and they function as maternal figures for not only their own children but really for the entire party. I'm thinking about how Joyce became like a mom for Elle when they thought Hopper had died at the end of season 3. Or like how Karen regularly allows the different party members to stay over at her house and share meals there, or take them despite Ted's wishes.

9:02 You know, there just seemed to be a communal sense of commitment amongst the mothers in the show to make sure that all the kids were taken care of. Absolutely, yeah. And that's a great segue into the next segment, motherhood and Stranger Things. So the way The Stranger Things portrays motherhood is as this fiercely protective, emotionally costy, and often heroic thing in ways that look ordinary on the surface but become extraordinary under pressure. The show treats moms less as background parents and more as emotional engines of the story.

9:42 It also shows motherhood as varied and complex rather than one note and simple, which I appreciate. Some moms are vigilant and intuitive, some are distant or limited by their circumstances, and some carry deep grief or loss. But nearly all are defined by the tension between helplessness and fierce love. Yeah, these Mamas carry a lot of that tension. A big part of the show's portrayal is that motherhood is not just about biology or blood. It's about sacrifice, instinct and presence. The series repeatedly suggests that a mother's love can cut through denial, danger, even the supernatural, which makes motherhood feel like one of the show's strongest sources of hope.

10:30 I would say. I also think the show teaches us that like, there isn't just one perfect mom out there. We are shown flawed women who are doing the best they can with the lot in life that they've been given or have created. 100% OK, We will talk a little bit more later specifically about motherhood in the 80s, but for now, we can dive into the next segment which is mom superlatives. We are going to award different superlatives to these main 6 moms in the show. The superlatives, in no particular order, are most complicated mom most likely to run the household, most oblivious, most likely to go feral, most dissatisfied, and most overlooked.

11:19 Each award can only be given out once, so we have to choose wisely. Lauren, which mom would you receive should receive the Most Complicated Mom Award. I think I would give that one to Susan Hargrove. So Max's mom, Billy's mom, and here's why. So she's divorced from Max's biological dad. And I don't know if we ever even learned much about. Him, except that maybe he's. Still in California? I don't know, But yeah. So she's divorced from him, and then he she remarried this abusive man named Neil Hargrove.

12:03 And then when he leaves her after Billy dies, we learn that she essentially becomes kind of like an overworked alcoholic to try to cope with those losses. And so here's a clip from Season 4 Episode 1 entitled Hellfire Club, where Max is talking with Miss Kelly, the school guidance counselor. How's her mom holding up? She's fine. I mean. She hates our new place, which like, yeah, it's terrible, but she's fine and. She's still drinking. Like yeah a little, but well she's working 2 jobs so it's not easy it.

12:52 Must not be easy for you either with your step dad gone. It's kind of better, honestly. She doesn't really seem to have much of a relationship with Max. We don't even ever see her visiting Max while she's in the hospital with a coma in seasons four or five, and I don't believe we see her at Max's graduation ceremony either. Yeah, but to give her the benefit of the doubt, though, I know that the actor who played Susan never received a call from the Duffers to return in Season 5, and so perhaps This is why we don't get to see her in those scenes.

13:32 Or she just attended the graduation off screen. Yeah. A lot happens off screen apparently. Yeah, that's true. Or maybe she was behind the scenes trying to make the conformity gate theory real. Yeah, instead. That would be pretty cool. I don't know. Yeah. So unlike Joyce or Claudia, Susan doesn't get a lot of warm, nurturing moments, which makes her feel more distant and harder to read. However, Susan seems sweet in season 2 and even tries and fails to keep Neil, which is her husband, from mistreating.

14:10 Billy, do you remember that? She's complicated because she seems well-intentioned, but unfortunately has so much of her own trauma and pain she's dealing with that she can't really be a fully present and caring mom for Max when Max needed it the most. And Vecna knows this, and he uses that to his advantage when he takes the form of Susan as a way to taunt Max as one of his targeted victims in season 4. Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. It was weird. It was like like Max's mom, but it was Vecna pretending to be had.

14:51 She had a flannel on, but then whenever Max goes to hug her, do you remember? Then it's like. Does it turn? He turns back into Vecna, but it's like he still has the flannel on. Kind of weird. But that's creepy. But that is a good choice, dear. Yeah, so, so Susan will get most complicated. Nice. Yeah. So the next superlative is most likely to run the household. A couple of them immediately come to mind for me, but which mom would you choose for that one? So with the categories that we have left as well, this is the moms that we have, I think probably Miss Sinclair Susanclair for this one because she gives that sort of like I keep this family functioning energy.

15:42 Yeah. And that is so needed. It is especially when you know, there's this supernatural psychopath that's trying to kill everyone and take the children. So you need a mom like that, you know, supernatural psychopath. That's fine. You should add it to your band note. Yeah, I will. I don't know. Should we mention that for the listeners? We haven't mentioned that, but you have a Yeah, I. Think I would win the superlative for longest list of band names that will never come to fruit. You guys. I have this list that I've kept on my phone since 2018 of band names.

16:22 Should I say how long ago that was? Please don't. OK, yeah, but yeah, but I'm, I don't, I don't remember the exact number that we're at, but I'm pretty sure it's over 730. Yeah, at this point. So the most recent one this just in. Supernatural psychopath. Look at that. Yeah, so anyway, you said Sue Sinclair. But yes, I'm back on target. She gets the. Family Functioning. Yes. So, yeah, she feels like that parent who would, you know, have the schedules, have the meals like planned out, be kind of like the emotional, like support and temperature of the house.

17:05 In a family with a lot of moving parts. She reads as the one who would notice problems early and try to handle them before they got bigger. We. Love being proactive? We love that. We love that anticipating needs is. Great. What a concept. Yeah, I'm thinking about like Season 2, Episode 5, which is called Dig Dug when the Sinclairs are having breakfast and then Erica is putting too much syrup on her pancakes while Lucas is seeking advice from his parents about about conflicts with girls.

17:39 That's enough, Erica. Dad.

17:46 When mom's mad at you, how do you make her not mad? That's a great question. How do you hunt? 1st, I apologize. Then I get your mother whatever she wants. Even when she's wrong, she's never wrong, son. See, even Charles is convinced that Sue is never wrong. Or at least he wants her to believe that he thinks that. Yeah, and then all she had to do was give Erica this deadpan look that instantly communicated, Girl, you better put that syrup down right now. And Erica does exactly that before quickly apologizing to accomplish all of that without even having to say a single word.

18:29 And that is definitely impressive. Momming right there. For sure, like having that, you know, having that look that like a mom can give, that's just. Like the look said, all they needed to say exactly. Yeah, yeah, okay, next superlative, most oblivious mom. Man. Who do you think would receive that one? Okay, okay, with who's left I'm thinking. I have I think. Yeah, I, I, I gotta go with Claudia Henderson. You didn't even know her name was Claudia, right? That's that's how. Yeah, so. So here's the thing.

19:07 Bless your heart. Also, it's just kind of ironic because in a lot of ways, Dustin is often the most like locked in of the Party in terms of figuring out what's going on, initiating a plan to help. Like he's usually the one figuring out the clues, right? But his sweet Mama just isn't as. I love the irony of that. Like you have, Yeah. Like the most involved or most knowledgeable. And then his mom is just probably the least right Involved or right. And like, she's clearly loving and supportive, but she rarely seems to notice or fully grasp the extent of Dustin's adventures and the supernatural chaos going on around him and his friends.

19:52 She tends to react to things after they happen, more reactive, not as proactive, rather than some sensing that something is off ahead of time. She's like the cheerful, loving mom who seems to have no idea what her kid is actually up to half the time and we kind of love her for it. Her her obliviousness is played for humor which makes her feel like the classic don't worry I'm sure it's fine mom type. You know, I'm also thinking about in season 2 episode 5, the Dig Dug that you mentioned when Claudia can't find her cat mused because she has no idea that a demo dog growing in Dustin's room ate it.

20:32 And she also. She also clearly has no idea Dustin is lying to her about the situation, pretending to have a lead when in reality he just needed her out of the house for a while. Dusty, baby, you sure she's not in your room? Uh huh. Uh huh. Thank you so much, Mr. Mccorkle. Thank you so much. You are a true lifesaver. All right, this is great. Thank you. All right. Have a good one. Bye. Bye now. All right. You too. All right. Great news. They found her? No, but they saw her wandering around. Lux. Nora.

21:09 How did the poor baby get all the way out there? I don't know. Lost, I guess. But they're going to look for her. And I'll stay here just in case they call again and you're going to go help. Look. Yeah, yeah. Give me a hug. Give me a hug. Go get her. You're gonna find it. All right? We can find her. We can find her. I love you.

21:29 I love you. I love you. I love you. All right, Go. All right. Man bless Claudia, we need her character for some comedic relief for sure. Oh yeah. Oh, definitely needed 100%. OK. Next up we have the superlative for most likely to go Ferrell. Joel, who would you award that one to? OK, that's that's Joyce. I mean, it's Joyce. I don't think there could be a different answer. I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, her love for her kids is so intense that it instantly turns into a survival instinct, like the second that they're in danger.

22:09 Or if she perceives there could be any form of danger. Yeah, it's like the axe. Yeah. Like I think of the axe scene, it's incredible. Which one? There's two. That's true. Okay, Not the season 5 this I mean. You're thinking season. One, yeah, Season one, yeah, to be fair. What the heck is going? On yes and when at. Where is my son? Like it's, it's such a good scene. It's one of my favorite scenes in the entire show. When Joyce like decides to take like to go into the shed to get an axe and atmosphere is playing.

22:44 By Joy Division. Yeah, so good. And while Joy Divi, Yeah, like while that song is playing, she takes the axe and she goes back into the house and just destroys the wall. She's like I will. Like I. I will in order to find I will. Yeah. And it's. Yeah. I just remember that scene just kind of leaving me in awe for a bit of like, wow, she really will go. So whatever. Yeah, whatever links are needed, she'll go the distance. She will to find Will. Yeah, Yeah. And I mean, she's the first person to insist that something actually is wrong when everyone else is in denial and trying to convince her, like, oh, your son's dead.

23:28 Like oh, here, here's his body were having a funeral for for. Or even Lonnie, like kind of do you remember he almost like throws in her face. I don't remember which family member of hers, but he kind of brings up like compares her maybe to her aunt who had like mental health issues. Remember, they're basically like you're like on the edge of insanity. You've got some stuff going on. Yeah, but she but she stuck to her guns like everyone convinced. Her or her axe? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah.

24:01 No gun but an axe. But yeah, like everyone's trying to convince her that she's crazy. Even Jonathan. Like even her, even her oldest son is saying. Like, you're. Yeah. Is arguing because Joyce is utterly convinced that Will still is alive and she's determined to find him even though everyone else thinks she's crazy. Mom, will you get in? I, I, I I need to think you just gone home. Mom, will you just get in, please? Mom.

24:41 Mom, Mom. Stop. Just go home. Jonathan. No. This is not an OK time for you to shut down. Shut down. We have to. Deal with this mom. We have to deal with the funeral, the funeral. For for for who? For that thing back there. Let me get this straight, Will. That's not his body, because he's in the lights, right? And there's a monster in the wall. Do you even hear yourself? I know it sounds crazy. I, I, I sound crazy. You think I don't know that it is crazy. But I heard him, Jonathan. He talked to me, Will is is calling to me and he's out there and he's alone and he's scared and, and I don't, I don't care if anyone believes me.

25:25 I am not going to stop looking for him until I find him and bring him home. I am going to bring him home. Joe Well, while you're talking to the lights, the rest of us are having a funeral for Will. I'm not letting him sit in that freezer another day. The show's over. And I just appreciate that she doesn't let the opinions of others sway her in like or to just get in her way of finding her son. She's determined that she will find Will. She's run through the Upside Down. She's fought government agents.

26:09 She's torn down walls with her bare hands when it came to protecting her kids. She's just so emotionally raw and unfiltered that when pushed she just doesn't hesitate. Like she doesn't back down, she just goes full not my kid mode. Yeah, it totally reminds me of Misses Molly Weasley and Harry Potter, especially when she's detecting her only daughter, Jenny. Deathly Hallows she gets. So angry that she uses a choice word in that moment. And so we won't show that clip. But if you know, you know. Yeah, yeah, great connection and similar energy comes off from Karen, of course.

26:53 Karen with her wine when protecting Holly. Yeah, that's definitely one of the best scenes in season 5. And so I thought about like for a moment I thought that we could give it to Karen. But even in spite of that, I think Joyce just because she's consistently more feral throughout the entirety of the show, she's less, she's definitely not a quiet, discreet mom and is more like, if you touch my kid, we're going to have a problem kind of mom and we respect her for that. We. Sure do. OK, next superlative.

27:31 Most dissatisfied. Who do you think we would give that one to? We've only got 2 left. We've got Terry and Karen. OK, between those two, I'm gonna go with Karen Wheeler. So her entire energy in the show is that of a woman who seems like she has it all together on the surface, but in reality she deeply. Feels like. Maybe something is off, missing, or even unfulfilling in her life. Though her life appears to be the, you know, American Dream and everything seems all polished, she's clearly dissatisfied in her marriage, somewhat frustrated by her relationship with her kids and the life that she's settled into in Hawkins, and she doesn't really seem to feel heard or fully understood.

28:28 In season 1 episode 5, which is called The Flea in the Acrobat, while practicing shooting with Jonathan, Nancy speaks a bit on how she perceives her parents marriage and lifestyle.

28:42 You ever shot a gun before? Have you met my parents? Yeah, I haven't shot one since I was 10. My dad took me hunting on my birthday. Made me kill a rabbit. A rabbit. Yeah, I guess he thought it would make me into more of a man or something. I cried for a week.

29:06 I'm a fan of Thumper. I meant your dad. Yeah, I guess he and my mother loved each other at some point, but I wasn't around for that part.

29:22 All right? Yeah, just point and shoot.

29:29 I don't think my parents ever loved each other. Must have married for some reason. My mom was young, my dad was older, but he had a cushy job. Money came from a good family, so they bought a nice house at the end of the cul-de-sac, started their nuclear family. Screw that. Yeah, screw that.

30:02 You know, I don't think Nancy is too far off in her assessment there. In Season 3 at the the 4th of July festival, Ted Wheeler comments on Joyce and Hopper's like, budding romantic relationship and says something like, I guess there's someone for everyone. And Karen simply like, rolls her eyes. I don't know if you remember that scene. She really doesn't seem all that pleased in her relationship with Ted, unfortunately. Yeah, which? It just kind of seems like he's a nuisance to her or I. Mean, I don't I don't feel like she I don't think that she feels connected to him, right.

30:39 Ted just kind of seems unavailable, right? Or just disinterested or just. Sleeps a lot or just? Sleeps yeah to where? Like, you know, we see some of that dissatisfaction come out in her, like, temporary, I guess, affair with wanting to be with Billy for a moment. Yeah. But it is sweet, though, because she does. Because I do remember there is a scene, though, where she gets all ready to go and I think meet Billy, but then she sees Ted sleeping on the recliner and decides not to. Like, I think, yeah, like she remembers like.

31:21 Well, and I think part of that is it's not just Ted. I think he's holding Holly. Yeah, and. So it's like she's realizing, like, am I really gonna tear my risk tearing my family? Apart. Tear up my marriage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad she chose not to do that. Yeah. And instead of leaning into chaos like Joyce often does, like you pointed out, she tends to pull back, which makes her dissatisfaction feel more like internalized and kind of just like simmering over time. Her character arc shows that she's capable of being more present and caring, but she spends a lot of time feeling stuck, ignored, or even unseen.

32:03 Yeah. And there's also the fact that she was, you know, the IT girl, the popular cheerleader in high school, you know, And so maybe part of her dissatisfaction is that she assumed that her life would have been more personally successful or just more. Yeah, just more enjoyable. Yeah. Yeah. Then what her life turned out to be. Yeah, yeah. She just can't get no satisfaction, you know? So I guess that goes to show that money, popularity, status, beauty aren't everything, right? Like to the world around her, her life seemed perfect, like she had it all.

32:46 And yet she's overtly unfulfilled. Which makes sense because the things and people of this world can never actually fully satisfy. Us. It's true. Yeah. Only Jesus. This can fill the void in our hearts and bring about eternal joy and satisfaction. OK, well that leaves just one more superlative, most overlooked mom. And that one goes to Terry Ives. And I think this definitely suits her well. She's one of the most emotionally powerful maternal figures in the show, yet she rarely gets the same attention as Joyce or other moms.

33:25 She's defined by a devastating loss that came at the hands of the system that she put herself under with the experiments, not by choice. But her suffering is largely off screen or only hinted at for much of the series. She's the heartbreak behind the experiment, the mother whose story everyone should remember but barely anyone actually talks about. And the narrative just kind of leaves her, you know? Her story is fragmented and tragic. She's unstable. She's institutionalized and used as a lab experiment.

34:06 So the show doesn't always center her as a mom quote UN quote in the traditional sense, even though motherhood is at the core of her pain. Wow, that's, yeah, that's a good observation. Yeah, well, thanks. When 11 is finally connected to her, the audience sees how much love and grief Terry carries. But then it's kind of fun to say Terry Carrie. Terry carries. Terry carries. But the narrative still spends far more time on the other moms and the other characters. Many viewers don't fully grasp how much Terry has sacrificed and how deeply she's shaped by the loss of her child, which makes her grief fly under the radar despite its enormous weight.

34:49 Here's a clip from Season 1 Episode 6 called The Monster, when Hopper and Joyce talk with Terry's younger sister Becky to learn more about what actually happened to Terry. She was a part of some study in college. MK Ultra, yeah. That's the one. It was started in the 50s. By the time Terry got involved it was supposed to be ramping down but the drugs just got crazier. Messed her up good. This was the CIA that ran this. You and Terry would have gotten along, the man with a big capital M. They'd pay, you know, a couple 100 bucks to people like my sister.

35:29 Give them drugs, psychedelics, LSD mostly. And then they'd strip her naked and put her in these isolation tanks. Isolation tanks? Yeah. They're these big bathtubs basically filled with salt water so you can float around there. You lose any sense of sense, feel nothing, see nothing. They wanted to expand the boundaries of the mind. Real hippie crap. I mean, I mean, it's not like they were forcing her to do any of this stuff. The thing is though, is that she didn't know she was pregnant at the time.

36:02 Jane, the tragic thing about that is that Becky and everyone around her were led to believe that Terry miscarried in the third trimester. But really, we know that Doctor Brenner took Jane for his experimental program and then he used electroshock therapy, quote, UN quote, and wasn't really giving her any kind of therapy. It was torturing her. Use electroshock torture to basically, I don't know, distort Terry or like, harm Terry's mind in such a way that she's stuck in this constant loop of just saying the same phrases over and over, and they're all tied to key moments in her past.

36:50 Like Breathe, Sunflower, Rainbow. Three to the right, Four to the left, 450. Yeah, that's, does that ever just randomly pop in your head? I feel like those. Sometimes. Yeah, I'll pop up in my head. Breathe. Sunflower. Rainbow. It's absolutely tragic. Just like the fact that we really only see Terry in seasons one and two. She really is overlooked as she isn't even in the show for seasons 3 through 5. And we never get to see if Jane is ever able to help break her free from that loop or if they get to have any kind of relationship.

37:27 Yeah, and we were definitely pretty bummed about that. Well, I think it's time we move into the next segment, which is the best mom moments. In no particular order, we'll rattle off some of our favorite mom moments of the show. Lauren, which do you want to share first? So one of the first ones that comes to mind for me is from season 5 episode 6, which is Escape from Camazot. When Karen, who like context had been bedridden at the hospital after a demogorgon attack, drags herself down to the laundry area of the hospital and puts a flammable oxygen tank in one of the machines in order to blow up the demo dogs who were hunting down Robin, Vicki, Lucas, and Max.

38:18 Even after extreme suffering and a near death experience, her Mama instincts didn't stop kicking in and she was ready to put herself in even more like life threatening danger in order to attempt to protect those kids. And what I love about this too, is that these aren't even her own kids, right? They're not, and yet she's risking her life for them. These kids are some of her kids dearest friends, and so she therefore sees them as family. Joel, what is the best mom moment you'd want to share from the show, I mean.

38:55 I already shared it but I'll share it again. Is Joyce with the axe y'all? Twice. So season 1 episode 4, she takes an axe from the shed and after like communicating with Will through the Christmas lights and yeah, she takes an axe and tries to breakthrough the wall like to get to Will. And then in the final episode of the show, the right side up in season 5, she uses an axe to chop off Feckna's head. After saying a choice word and destroying him once and for all, she she strikes him exactly 11 times, which is also a pretty cool detail.

39:42 Yeah, 11. Absolutely iconic. And a word to the wise, if you cross Joyce, you will get the axe. I also have to mention another one. Joyce being there for Elle in season 3 episode 8, the Battle of Star Court, when they all thought Hopper had died. I know I kind of brought that up before, but Joyce didn't hesitate for a single moment to adopt Elle as part of her family. She, yeah, becomes like a mom. For her, motherhood isn't just about blood or biology. Joyce did not have to care for Elle, but she humbly, joyfully, and willingly adopted her in.

40:22 She chose to be a mom for her. And I think that is just so incredibly beautiful. It really reflects God's heart for us as sinners, separated from Him. Like He is in no way obligated to adopt anyone into His family, and yet in His loving kindness and grace, He chooses to adopt sinners and turn them into Saints, giving them a place in His eternal home forever. Praise Him for that. OK, I want to. Share one more too. Go for it. So Joy, I mean, Joy's talking with Will with the Christmas lights. I had just mentioned it earlier, yeah, in the Holly jolly in the.

41:02 Holly Jolly episode in. Season 1, yeah, I think it's episode 3. Yeah. Yeah, she doesn't just want to know if he's alive, but the immediate next question was whether or not he was safe. Such a good mom. And then, of course, right after this scene, she paints the iconic alphabet on the wall with the colored lights. So that Will would be able to answer more than just yes or no questions Will. Are you here? OK. Good. Good. Good. Good. Where are you? Blink once for yes, twice for no. Gay. Gay. Can you do that for me, sweetie?

41:44 Can you do good boy? Good boy. Maybe I need to know. Are you alive?

42:05 Are you safe? I need to know where to find. You, honey, where? Where are you? Can you, can you tell me where you are? Can you please baby, I need to find you, tell me what to do. Absolutely brilliant. She is so bright. Yeah. Wow I did not realize that. So connected. Never bored, huh? Yeah, I know we haven't focused on her at all in this episode, but we also got to give a shout out to Barb's mom, Marsha Holland, because that woman put her house up for sale just so that she could afford to hire a private detective.

42:57 I forgot, in an attempt to find her daughter. Heartbreaking, since she didn't yet have the context, knowledge, or closure that Barb had actually already died. That's terrible. And there are just so many amazing mom moments in this show. We can stop there though, because we have our last segment, The Lightning Round. So this time I'm gonna ask Lauren a series of questions to get her honest reactions and opinions. And for context, Lauren has not seen these questions, so here we go #1 which mom has the most underrated courage?

43:39 Oh.

43:42 Yeah. I think I'm. Going to say Karen Wheeler for that one. Like she Yeah, like we think about how she is just like we mentioned, dissatisfied in general in a lot of ways with her life and. And yet, like, she has some of the most powerful moments in the show in terms of protecting kids, whether they're her own kids or not. I don't like I I still think about like I thought for sure she was cooked honestly in season 5 whenever the Demogorgon came in and she like all the only weapon she had nearby was to like take a wine bottle and smash it and attack just to try to protect Holly.

44:32 Like, I don't think she was even in that moment necessarily thinking about protecting herself because she says the whole like, stay away from my daughter or whatever, you know? And so that takes immense courage. Like, I thought she was straight up gonna die. Like, you remember that moment, Nancy? And who was with Nancy? I don't remember. Who it? Was but they arrive at the house and like you see Nancy's. Face, but you don't yet know. Like, did Karen survive or not? Like, Oh yeah. I mean, super courageous.

45:06 And then, yeah, when she's like barely hanging on in the hospital recovering from that and then hears on the intercom that the kids are in trouble, like down in the laundry room and to drag herself down there to do whatever she can to just protect them. Like, yeah, I she's incredibly courageous. Yeah. Yeah. Quit. Answer #2 Who is the most emotionally available mom in the show? Oh. That's a good question. I I want to say Joyce perhaps because like, yeah, like I think about moments where Joyce like at 1 moment she's connecting with Jonathan and she's like Jonathan, you know, you can talk to me, right?

46:02 Like, you don't have to do this alone. You're not alone. You know, she like she is so fiercely protective of her kids. And I think she makes it pretty clear that she is available to them and and emotionally too, because like consistently Hopper goes to her to get kind of like parenting advice. Like he goes to her and he's like, hey, like, I can't get them to stop hanging out. They're hanging like Mike and Elle are hanging out every single day. It doesn't seem healthy, but I don't know what to do.

46:35 And she she's like talks him through it of like, you know, like she's like this is, you know, you need to don't talk down at them. You need to like, like you need to be with them and kind of have a heart to heart kind of moment. Yeah, that, that. The comedic scene where she's like, where I think Hopper's like trying to rehearse what Joyce told him. So he's like, we need to have boundary. Yeah, yeah. That's and. Understand. Each other like yeah, because. She, I mean, she is, she's a good mom and she understands those things and puts them into practice pretty well.

47:14 Not perfectly, obviously there. There's the whole growth arc in Season 5 where Will and Joyce kind of have a moment of realizing like, hey, you've been kind of a little overprotective. Like, it's OK to let Will, you know, have a little bit of autonomy and be freed up to make mistakes too. But. But yeah, I would say she seems to be the most emotionally available. Nice. Yeah. #3 Before season 5 premiered, several people theorized that Karen Wheeler was actually Henry Creel's little sister, Alice Creel.

47:54 Why do you think that is? Do you agree or disagree with the theory and why? That's a. Fun question. So why would they have? Theorized that I mean, perhaps one reason is just the sheer amount of felt screen time that Karen gets throughout the show. Obviously Joyce is the mom who's going to get the most screen time because her son is the one who went missing in the beginning. But but then outside of that, I mean, would you agree like Karen is the mom that gets the next amount of screen time? And so it's interesting of like why focus so much on Karen?

48:33 Maybe that caused people to kind of just like how the conformity gate theory came into play as people started like asking like, OK, why did this detail change? Or why did the camera linger here really long? And so maybe it's like, why did Karen get all the screen time? And not only that, I'm also remembering when the posters for like the promo posters for season 4, I believe came out. Like I think Karen got her own like like headshot her own poster. And so I think that caused people to maybe spiral of like, well, why is Karen being featured?

49:11 Like if she have a bigger role? And this was for season 4, which is where we learn about the creoles. So maybe that's the connection of like, oh, OK. So maybe like maybe we think that Alice died, but maybe she didn't. And maybe with the powers that Vecna has, he kind of like quote UN quote like wiped her memory of what happened. I don't know. And so like it's like semi plausible, but do I think it's true? No, I don't. I, I feel like we did. From what I remember, we did see Alice's body. Like I don't think she was in a coma.

49:55 And so she I think passed away. I mean, it's really sad, but I think she did. And I don't know, I feel like if Karen really were Henry's sister, then wouldn't she have had maybe more awareness of what all was going on? Like, she seemed pretty shocked when she saw a demo gorgon. Like, I don't think she's was very aware of what was going on with, like, the Upside Down and all of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would say. No, I don't, I don't agree with that theory. And then I, I think Cara Bono, who plays Karen Wheeler, she she caught wind that people were theorizing that.

50:38 And so she actually took a selfie and put it on her Instagram. I mean, I can share it on ours too. But I think she took a selfie with like, Jamie Campbell Bower, who plays Vecna and made a her comment said something like, yeah, we're not siblings or something, like just just to be really clear. So, yeah, yeah. Nice #4 OK, why do? You think the? Duffer Brothers did not return to or at least resolve Terry Ives storyline after Season 2. If they had, how do you think that would have brought her back into the plot?

51:17 And do you think that she would have been able to be a part of Jane's life? Oh, OK. Why they didn't return to her storyline? I mean, I want to be like, well, because her storyline happened off screen. But no, in all seriousness, like maybe they just didn't feel like they had sufficient time to really fully dive into that. I mean, there was a lot, a lot going on, especially after Season 2. And so maybe that's why they didn't. Or maybe they just weren't sure how they would bring her storyline back.

52:01 Perhaps. I think part of it too may be that they didn't want the focus to be, I mean, for better or worse, I'm not saying I agree with this, but they did. Maybe they didn't want the focus to be on Terry, you know, developing some kind of maternal relationship with Jane because season, like in season is it 2, that's when like Hopper gets to adopt Jane and then so then the focus becomes more on developing that paternal relationship between Hopper and Elle. So maybe they just didn't want to. I don't know if it would necessarily detract from that.

52:45 But you know, there's only so much you can focus on, right? And so that might be part of it. How would they have brought her back into the plot? I feel like we talked about this a bit during our Season 5 reaction episode. Like our our OG episode where you and I had kind of theorized that it would have been really cool if somehow in Season 5, like Terry was somehow not really sure how maybe Kali could have helped her or something, but broken free from that loop that she was stuck in and could have then helped the gang defeat the Mind Flayer.

53:33 And like that, I don't know exactly what that would have looked like, but that could have been really cool to at least like, yeah, 'cause I mean, the Duffer said, like all the loose ends are gonna be tied up and everything. And so it's like then, but what about Terry? Like, it would have been cool. She could have been involved in Season 5, even if it was just briefly or something. But yeah, do I think that she would have been able to be a part of Jane or Elle's life? I mean, if I I think that could have been possible, I guess.

54:11 But then on the other hand, maybe not because Jane ultimately made that sacrifice to where we think that she's still alive, but she basically part of the sacrifice there. She can't be in her friends and family's life anymore in order to protect them and herself. And so maybe. She could have, briefly. Been restored with Terry, but then I don't know beyond that. I'm not really sure if she would have been able to, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. I mean the. Only way I could really think that Terry could have been a part of Jane's life is if they agreed together.

54:51 Like, we're both gonna run away, right? Like. I think that's the only that's the only way. Yeah, good answer, dear. And now #5 last question, what is the biggest difference between motherhood now versus motherhood in the 80s? Oh, OK. Yeah, OK. And this is like an unsolicited opinion from someone who is not a mother, but just from observation. And we didn't grow up in the 80s. Correct. Yeah, so take. Everything here with a grain of salt, essentially. But yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I guess I'm thinking about our episode on borrowed nostalgia.

55:37 I think we talked about this some, but I think a key difference could be that moms in the 80s were maybe more likely just because it was culturally more normative, at least here in the United States. I would say to kind of give your kids more freedom and autonomy just of like, hey, go out and play, ride around on your bikes and just come back before it gets super, super dark or when the street light comes on, you know, and that's why it stranger Things works the way it does, because the kids, they, they're able to go around on their bikes and they talk on the walkie talkies.

56:20 And often, I mean, you see the moms being like, I don't know where my, you know, kids are. Like, I think, you know, that's just kind of an ongoing joke in the show of like it's summer. I don't know, there's somewhere like, you know, that's just part of it. Whereas nowadays that's a lot less likely, I would say where there's now like you can track people's locations on their phones and more. I mean, their kids even have cell phones. You know, that wasn't a thing in the 80s. And. And I think, yeah, just honestly, with the rise of quick and easy access of information that we have.

57:02 And so unfortunately, part of that is, I mean, you, you're aware of more of the depravity in the world and different crime and things that are happening. You might know where, like, a sexual predator lives because you have easy access to find that information out. And so with the rise of more information like that comes more supervision and protection with, you know, from parents of like, yeah, so we're going to be a little bit more cautious of, like, where our kids can go and who they can interact with and things, you know, from a place of love.

57:40 Like I'm not talking about helicopter parenting, but just to yeah, keep, keep kiddo safe. And so that might be a key difference I'm thinking about. I don't know if you have any others you wanted to add. I mean, I think. Yeah, like this just came to mind. I think that part of that like. Maybe. I guess, for lack of a better word, like increased supervision. Could, may, or. Actually, let me rephrase that. Maybe the lower amount of supervision in the 80s. I think part of that is definitely attributed to like the communal, like the communal motherhood kind of deal, right?

58:26 It takes a village where it takes. A village like and. And I think, I think I would wager that that people in the 80s probably knew more of their neighbors than people nowadays do. Oh yeah. And so. And. And what's sad about that is like when you really think about that for a moment, because it, it can be hard to do that just because we've been in this new, you know, age for a while, right? And then the pandemic. Yeah, and the pandemic further affected. Things right? Like. You have to remember that there was a time where people knew more of their neighbors.

59:08 And so there was this idea that there was kind of just communal trust of like, Oh, my kid can go around in the neighborhood and I know these different neighbors to where they have my phone number or they can look me up in the Yellow Pages because we've met each other. And they can call me to let me know that their kid is over at their house or that they scrape their knee or whatever. And but The thing is, is that now unfortunately, the world is just this scary unknown place that when you are in a neighborhood and you let your kid go out in the streets, there's just unfortunately, there's just fear there because there's this unknown element of like, I don't know who these people are.

59:57 I don't, I don't feel like I have a community of neighbors to help like, yeah, to help me. And so because of that, I think a lot more responsibility just falls on the parents. Because it's not. As shared among the community, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. I'm sure there are There are other differences as well, but those are some of the main things. That's what comes to mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. Well, then that about wraps it up. Thank you all so much for listening. And if you enjoyed listening, please give us a review or rating on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Audible, Amazon, wherever you're listening as it helps us reach other listeners out there like you.

1:00:53 Totally so. Our next episode will be the start of a another series on the music of Stranger Things. We got some good. Feedback about. That so we're running it back. We're specifically going to do a deep dive on the song. Should I stay or should I go by The Clash? If you have any thoughts on how this song was utilized throughout Stranger Things, we'd love to hear from you. You can contact us at [email protected] or on Instagram at our handle Camp Nowhere Pod. Thank you all so much again and we'll catch you on the next one.

1:01:29 See you all, bye.