Harry Things: Dr. Martin Brenner (Papa) & Albus Dumbledore

0:01 O. Well, hello everyone, and welcome back to Camp Nowhere, a Stranger Things podcast. My name's Joel. And my name's Lauren. We are so thankful you're here to listen to us process all things Stranger Things. We are in a miniseries right now called Hairy Things, where we've been doing a deep dive on the parallels and contrast between Harry Potter and Stranger Things. For this episode, we are focusing entirely on Doctor Martin Brenner, also known as Papa and Albus Dumbledore. We sure are. And first, before we get into that, as always, we got to give a spoiler alert because we take spoilers seriously.

1:08 So yeah, if you. Use in like serious sleep. The series Black, Yeah, I knew what you were going for. Yeah. If you have not seen Stranger Things in its entirety, seasons one through 5 or the Harry Potter films one through 8, or The Fantastic Beast and Where to Find Them trilogy, be warned. We will be discussing a lot of spoilers, so go give those a watch before giving us a listen. For sure, for sure. OK, so in honor of Doctor Brenner and Dumbledore, go get you a crossword puzzle and some lemon drops.

1:43 Lemons. And now we're ready to jump right into our first segment here. Lemons. No, that's not the name of this segment. The back stories of these characters. I can take Brenner if you want to break down Dumbledore. For sure. Yep, I got you. Then here we go. Buckle so with Doctor Martin Brenner, more widely known as Papa. He is a central antagonist and Stranger Things. We don't actually learn much about Doctor Brenner's early life or upbringing. Expanded Universe material such as Tie and Works and fandom based summaries gives him a birth date of October 28th, 1928, but this has not been firmly confirmed in the main show itself.

2:28 According to the first Shadow play following the events of the Philadelphia Experiment in 1943, which is where his father allegedly survived a disastrous Dimension build, dimension bending naval ship incident, Brenner dedicated his career to reproducing those things. In 1953, Brenner was involved in Project MK Ultra, ACIA backed program focused on mind control techniques involving psychedelic drugs, sensory deprivation and severe mental and physical abuse and. This was like our government like, yeah, OK, got.

3:08 It great love that Brenner took custody of a young Henry Creole, who later became Becna and Hawkins around 1959 after the Creole family murders, and he was interested in Henry's intense psychic abilities. After failing to control him, Brenner implanted a suppression chip, which he called Soteria, into Henry and began using his blood to experiment on pregnant women, hoping to create similar, more compliant powers in their children. Brenner targeted pregnant women involved in his projects, which included 11's mother named Terry Ives.

3:47 After they gave birth, he kidnapped the children. So he kidnapped 11, who was Jane Ives as well as Collie who is number 8 and raised them within the lab as test subjects. He also forced these children to call him Papa. So adopting a twisted father figure role to control them. It makes me think of the movie Tangled. Where? Yeah, where? What's, what's the mom's name? But like, yeah, like. I can't remember. Like, and the song is like mother knows best, like kind of using that to try to manipulate Rapunzel to not leaving the tower.

4:29 That's sweet you thought about that. Admittedly, I thought more about Bethel Church and how their pastor had made the people call him Papa Bill, but anyway. Yeah, that's also. I like your example better. Yes, mine's maybe a little more right and cheery. Yeah. Yeah. So, So, yeah, switching back to using, like, twisted parental roles to control children. So that's where we are right now. So he's using that to mix affection with intense psychological manipulation and even brutally punishing the children, such as using solitary confinement.

5:14 In 1969, Brenner became the director of operations at Hawkins National Laboratory, taking over existing research and steering it towards telekinesis and remote viewing. With the partial goal of spying on the Soviets. He directed unethical experiments at Hawkins National Lab under the guise of U.S. Department of Energy research. On September 8th, 1979, after 11 removed the suppression ship from one who was Henry, one killed all the other test subjects except 11. Doctor Brenner, upon finding the bodies, seemed genuinely distressed, but later focused on 11 as his sole controllable high level subject.

6:02 In 83, Brenner forced 11 to use her powers to make contact with one in the Upside Down, which resulted in the accidental opening of the gate to that dimension and the escape of the Demogorgon that that we see in season 1. It's so sad because she didn't mean to do that. She didn't know what she was doing. Yeah. And then following those events of Season 1 where he was attacked by the Demogorgon, Brenner was fired as director of the Hawkins Lab but survived even though how in the world did that happen?

6:36 Yeah. He didn't even really seem to have much of A so much as a scratch after that, but. Yeah, but somehow he learned. We just remember this is all fictional. This is true. By 1986, he resurfaced, teaming with Doctor Sam Owens to restore 11's lost powers to fight the threat of Vecna, who was formerly called One with the project they called the Neenah Project. This was in a secret bunker that's located in Nevada and Season 4. He was ultimately shot and killed by military forces during an attempt to try to escape with 11.

7:14 Goodness, what a complicated tapestry. And Dr. Brenner is just such a complex character. Okay, so now for Dumbledore. Back story.

7:27 Dumbledore, Albus Albus Percival Wolfrich, Brian Dumbledore. What a name. He was 1/2 Blood wizard, widely regarded as the most powerful and brilliant headmaster in Hogwarts history. His life was defined by extreme academic success overshadowed by profound personal tragedy that we'll talk about, early flirtation with dark magic, and a long standing guilt that shaped his mature, benevolent and ultimately protective personality. He was born to Percival and Kendra Dumbledore in August of 1881 in the village of Mold on the world, England.

8:11 We looked it up. That is how that is a place. It is a place, and that is how you say. That is how you say it, Mold on the world, which is really fun. Albus was the eldest of three. He had a brother named Aberforth and his sister Ariana. When Ariana was six years old, she was brutally attacked by muggle boys who witnessed her performing magic. The trauma left her emotionally scarred and unfortunately mentally unstable, causing her to suppress her powers, which would then manifest in these dangerous and often uncontrolled outbursts.

8:49 So in retaliation, Percival Dumbledore, the dad, he attacked the moguls and was sentenced to prison in Azkaban, where unfortunately, he passed away. To escape the scrutiny of the wizarding world and protect Ariana from being sent to Saint Mungo's Hospital, Kendra, the mother, moved the family to Godric's Hollow, attending Hogwarts. In 1892, Dumbledore was sorted into Gryffindor house. Fun fact, Joel and I are both in the Gryffindor house. Yeah, we are. And yes, we have taken that test. So Dumbledore was considered the most accomplished student to ever attend the school.

9:31 He won the Barnabas Finkley Prize for exceptional spell casting and became a Head Boy, which is kind of like their version of a student leader. Shortly after Albus graduated from Hogwarts, one of those magical outbursts from his sister Ariana accidentally killed their mother Kendra, leaving Dumbledore quite bitter, resentful, and reluctantly in charge now of his younger siblings. In 1899, Geller Grindelwald arrived in Goderick's Hollow as sharp as Albus. Grindelwald became his best friend. Albus became infatuated with Grindelwald's plan to lead a wizarding revolution, destroy the Statue of Secrecy, and dominate Muggles for the greater good.

10:22 Quote UN quote. When Albus's brother Aberforth tried to stop them, a three-way duel between Albus, Aberforth and Grindelwald broke out. A stray curse killed their sister Ariana, causing Grindelwald to flee the scene. Consumed by guilt, Albus abandoned this quest for power and became a teacher at Hogwarts. First day Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher and then later a Transfiguration teacher. In 1945, Albus defeated Grindelwald. Mind you, that's his best friend and a legendary duel. Acquiring the Elder Wand, which is the most powerful wand in the world.

11:04 He became Headmaster of Hogwarts, organized the Order of the Phoenix against Voldemort, and knowing he was dying from a cursed ring, planned his own death in coordination with Professor Severus Snape, which was on June 30th of 1997. Dumbledore is remembered as the only wizard that Lord Voldemort ever feared, a champion of Muggle born rights and a man whose deep understanding of love was forged through his early and unfortunately tragic mistakes. So now that we know both of their contexts, we can move on to our next segment here, character parallels.

11:47 So you may be asking yourself like, why? Why would we choose to focus on these two characters specifically? And that's a valid question. And so we're going to dive into that. Yeah. So we think both of these characters could fit into the category of a questionable mentor. So both are authority figures who, quote, UN quote, raised the gifted children. So like Papa raised 11 and Dumbledore quote UN quote raised Harry and Tom Riddle, and they acted as gatekeepers to their power and they often kept secrets that put the children in danger.

12:27 So let's first take a look at Dumbledore and Harry. So Dumbledore. So definitely a theme is that Dumbledore withholds information from Harry. A lot crucial information. All the time. Like in every book, basically. Yeah. So Dumbledore knows for years. What we find out basically at the end, yeah, is that Harry carries a piece of Voldemort's soul within him. And so because of that, Harry will likely have to die. In order to defeat. Voldemort in order to defeat Voldemort, Yeah. And yeah, Dumbledore delays telling him, shaping Harry's choices without informed consent and effectively raising him as a potential sacrifice.

13:14 He also weaponizes other people's feelings, so Dumbledore recruits Snape as a double agent by leveraging Snape's love for Lily. So Lily is Harry's mom, So Dumbledore knew about Snape's love for Lily. And so Dumbledore uses that for his purposes, and then keeps Snape's motives and sacrifices secret from Harry, moving both of them around like pieces in a larger strategy. Almost seems as though he's playing real life wizarding chess in Half Blood Prince. So the sixth film, Dumbledore finally reveals his plan to Professor Snape, and Snape realizes that Harry must die.

14:01 You've kept him alive so they can die at the proper moment. You've been raising him like a pig for slaughter. Don't tell me now that you've grown to care for the point. I love Professor Snape, it's just heartbreaking because all along like the kids think Snape is this bad guy the majority of the time but really he is constantly putting the needs of others before his own. He seems to care more about Harry at times than Dumbledore does. Man, since we're talking about Dumbledore and Snape, we we also we gotta use the clip of Michael Gambon and Alan Rickman.

14:45 So Dumbledore and Snape pulling a prank on a young Daniel Radcliffe or Harry Potter during the filming of The Prisoner of Azkaban. There was this one, there was one time where in this room actually Michael Gambon and Alan Rickman and I think Alfonso was kind of coordinating it to the opportunity to play a a practical joke on me, really, really funny and for you and. The whole of the whole is sleeping. It was very good because it was a bunch of sleeping bags and, and, and Dan has us to have his sleeping bag next to this particular girl that he fancied.

15:27 For now, let them sleep. We've just done a take, right? We've just finished the take and it's taken ages together. In our dreams, we enter completely our own world. You know, it's completely our own world. And we like to, we like to swim in the deepest waters and fly. They had put a fart machine into my sleeping bag. This whole echo. And Michael Gambon had actually been pressing it during the take, I found out. Michael Gambon must have been quite the stinker. Amazing. OK, so back to his mentorship of Harry.

16:16 So Dumbledore controls access and information. So Dumbledore's office door is quote UN quote always open, but he keeps his real plans and knowledge to himself. He guides Harry with half truths so that Harry trusts Dumbledore more than his own judgement. In Order of the Phoenix. So the 5th book slash film, Dumbledore emotionally abandons Harry quote UN quote for his own good. He avoids Harry to keep Voldemort from exploiting their connection. But this leaves Harry isolated, angry and vulnerable, contributing to Harry's reckless trip to the Ministry and ultimately what led to serious blacks like.

17:01 At the Ministry of Magic. Yeah. And yeah, Dumbledore also has some of his loyalty is to the greater good, but not to the child, not towards Harry. Dumbledore's vision of the greater good often outweighs his duty to Harry as an individual, so he sometimes treats Harry more like a means to an end, like to like a means to defeat Voldemort, than like a student to protect. Wow, yeah, honestly so true. So All in all, he he genuinely cares for Harry and he equips him to win. But the combination of secrecy, manipulation and like calculated risk makes his mentorship morally, I guess, like ambiguous.

17:54 So we'll come back to Dumbledore and his mentoring of Tom Riddle. But wanted to take a look at Doctor Brenner and Jane or 11 now. So Brenner engineers dependence. So he abducts Jane, Jane Ives at birth, renames her 11 like, tattoos that number on her, isolates her from any real family, and sets himself up as her only source of affection and approval. So now her whole identity and sense of safety kind of depend on him. So he manipulates her perception of others by controlling all information and contact.

18:41 He frames himself as a protector while letting the other numbered children like experiments bully her until it suits his agenda to intervene. Which really just reinforces the idea that really it's only Papa that can keep her safe. His love, if you want to call it that, is conditional and transactional. So when she performs well in the different experiments they're doing, he'll reward her with like some sort of tenderness or like a small gift. Like I think I remember he gave her a purple flower, I think.

19:20 But then when she fails or he views her as disobedient, he'll lock her in solitary confinement and uses psychological torment, treating affection kind of as a training tool rather than genuine care. Yeah, that's a good point. He also prioritizes power over 11's well-being so his real interest is in her abilities not not her mental, physical, emotional health. He pushes her to dangerous limits with these like sensory deprivation tanks and tests. Even though she's just like a young child, you know, still developing and and scared.

20:07 So even in protective moments. He won't admit fault and this is something that really bothers me about Papa. He he does risk his life to help 11 escape the military in season 4, but dies insisting like in a moment where he's talking with her, insisting that he always loved and protected her. He refused to acknowledge and call the abuse abuse because it was. And so this gaslights 11 about her own experience with him. I'm sure that was deeply confusing to her. So here is a clip of his exchange with 11 right after he gets shot by the military and he knows that he is about to die 11.

21:03 I want you to know I'm proud of you, so very proud.

21:12 You are my family, my child. I've only ever wanted to help you, to protect you. Everything I did, I did for you.

21:51 I need you to understand. Wow. She does not relieve him of the internal guilt and shame that he is clearly experiencing, right? Rather than saying she understands, she simply puts his hand down on the ground and says goodbye, Papa. Like leaving him there to die. I wanted to make an observation here that in my many, many times rewatching the show, eventually this this stuck out to me. If you can remember, in season 3, there's there's a similar but also entirely different moment between 11 and Hopper, who is now her adopted father.

22:35 In episode 8, The Battle of Star Court, Hopper says to Elle. Right now, I need you safe. This thing is after you. It's not after me. Do you understand? Hey, I need you to understand. Elle responds by looking right into his eyes, and she shakes her head. Yes, she acknowledges him. At that moment with Papa, she refused to acknowledge his plea for her to understand the supposed love that he had for her. I think that's her way of revealing that she views Hop as her true father figure, not Papa. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

23:16 I know. So good. I think the writers did a great job there. So I know it was tough for Millie Bobby Brown to film that scene with Matthew Modine, who played Papa because I don't, you know, I don't know if you knew, but they're actually very close in real life. I believe she had him officiate her wedding to Jake Bon Jovi. But because Papa died in Season 4, we don't get to see him in Season 5. Side note here, someone actually recently asked Matthew Modine on his Instagram, Hey Papa, did you like the finale of Stranger Things?

23:54 Matthew commented back and just it just said Nope. Someone else then asked does Papa believe in Stranger Things episode 9? So they're referencing the whole conformity gate theory, to which he responds, hoping so for. The fans sounds like God like. Savage. But I mean, hey, listen, he was honest. Yeah, we appreciate that. Yeah. Though Papa doesn't always tell the truth, Matthew Modine is afraid to be brutally honest. OK, so these patterns you mentioned frame Brenner as a mentor who teaches 11 how to use her powers, but through abuse, control and emotional manipulation rather than through healthy guidance.

24:44 So let's go back to Dumbledore because yeah, it's just interesting because because we were talking about it before recording. Like, yeah, there's like with Papa, you see it with 11, the mentor relationship. But with Dumbledore, you actually, you definitely see it with Harry, but you can easily argue that it would also be true of Tom Riddle. And so it's just interesting that Dumbledore is the mentor of not just the protagonist, but also the central antagonist as well, so. He's a super complex character.

25:21 He is like he he's the link between them. Yeah. So yes, Dumbledore and Tom Riddle. So from the start, Dumbledore is very suspicious rather than nurturing. He visits young Tom and the orphanage, already wary of his cruelty and manipulativeness. And once Tom arrives at Hogwarts, he keeps a quote UN quote watchful eye rather than ever really offering him emotional support or like a healthier model of power. Clearly he didn't take the advice of Parks and Recs. Jean Rafio and Mona Lisa don't get. Suspicious.

26:04 Don't. Don't be. Suspicious. Don't be suspicious, Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious, Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious, don't be suspicious. That's such a good and it's so fun because didn't they improv? That I want to say. Yes, I think they did. I feel like probably. Yeah, I'm pretty. Sure they did. I'm pretty sure. So anyway, yeah, clear suspicion there. Dumbledore observed Tom's darkness without intervening deeply, though. So yeah, Dumbledore notes that Tom's charm and late night research and control over other students, but mostly monitors instead of actually confronting or like taking action to like rehabilitate him in a meaningful way.

27:06 And he lets Tom basically like doom himself or like self destruct. So by not directly. Too much doom scrolling. Did they do that back then or not? But yeah, what do you mean by that? Yeah, like by not directly blocking Tom's obsession with forbidden magic. And like a key example that Voldemort uses of forbidden magic is the Horcruxes. Like that's what allows him to still live by putting his soul in different objects. Which he can only do by killing people. Exactly. Just so we're all clear. Yeah.

27:43 So yes, like Dumbledore doesn't directly block Tom's obsession with forbidden magic and instead he just lets him pursue that path because Dumbledore could have stepped in, but Dumbledore decided to let him like pursue that forbidden magic path and like thinking that that will ultimately weaken Tom and destroy him. Dumbledore treats Tom self destruction as part of like playing the long game. In Wizards chess. Yes, in Wizards. Yes, Dumbledore may have been playing Tom the way he later plays Harry.

28:26 Oh, interesting. That is. Yeah. Could you unpack that? Yeah. So like, basically the way that he would do it is that he would steer them just enough that his own decisions will eventually ensure his defeat, rather than prioritizing saving or reforming him as a child. Wow, so while Dumbledore is technically Tom's teacher and sort of like a guardian, his stance is distant and suspicious, strategic, not truly mentoring in a redemptive type of way. In all three cases, the mentor role is somewhat compromised because guiding the child is never purely about the child.

29:12 It is interwoven with, like we mentioned, control larger strategies, maybe even an unsettling willingness to risk or damage the very person they are supposed to be protecting. OK, so as I was thinking about this, I thought about the question that I want to ask you, Joel. So why do you think Dumbledore didn't stop Tom Riddle before he became too immersed in this dark magic and then ultimately turning himself into Lord Voldemort? Yeah, so why didn't Dumbledore stop him earlier on? Yeah, you always ask such good questions.

29:51 Well. Thank you. I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot, there was a lot at play. So like, as I mentioned before, Dumbledore was immediately cautious. So like when Dumbledore first met Tom Riddle as an 11 year old orphan, he already noted that Tom was manipulative and that he was stealing items from peers. But Tom didn't seem to Dumbledore as the future Dark Lord. He offered Tom a place at Hogwarts, hoping that education might fix the problem like would reform him, as suspicions alone weren't enough to condemn a child.

30:36 I mean, yeah, that's fair, right? And then along with that theme of like, he really only had suspicions that there was a lack of concrete proof during Tom's Hogwarts years. So, yeah, when Tom was a student at Hogwarts, Dumbledore suspected him of opening the Chamber of Secrets and framing Hagrid for Myrtle's death, which we find out in the second book. But Dumbledore lacked the hard evidence to act. He only suspected that it would have been him. Right, but you can't convict someone over a suspicion.

31:14 Right. So he kept close watch on on Tom, preventing further incidents like reopening the chamber. And yet the Ministry of Magic prioritized just quick justice over doing, like, deeper investigations. Cuz that would require more work. It would, yeah. It's. Like maybe they just had a lot of other things going on. Not to justify it, but yeah. There was other stuff they were doing, yeah, yeah. And then also there was a bit of strategy there too, of like having restraint at first. So Dumbledore blocked Tom's Defense Against the Dark Arts job application.

32:02 Twice. Twice, yeah. And like first, Dumbledore advised. Like we're rejecting it because you need it, because Tom needs to get more experience. So basically like anytime anyone's applying for a job today. Yeah, basically. Today's job. Today's job market? Yes, we, we, yes. An entry level position that requires five years of professional experience in this job. Oof. Great. Too soon, too soon. Oof. So yes, like first when he rejected the application, it was like you just need more experience. But then he rejected the transformed Voldemort outright to deny his influence over students because he didn't write like he didn't want Voldemort to be in a position of being able to influence other students.

32:53 And so, in their final meeting, despite confirming Tom's dark experiments, Dumbledore chose restraint over violence. Love that. Wary of escalating too early without foolproof or broader support. This reflected his philosophy against pre emptive killing based on hunches. And I have a hunch that it's time for our next segment. Character differences and personality and motivations. OK, I can take Doctor Brenner and kick us off. So Brenner viewed himself as a patriot, genuinely believing that his brutal and unethical methods were necessary to protect the United States.

33:42 Were they really? Well. Were they? He is defined by this like calm demeanor and manipulative nature, his role as a delusional scientist who refuses to take responsibility for the different horrors that he creates. And then there's also this abusive love. Like I said earlier, I don't know what we should we should call it that. But while he was capable of showing a form of twisted paternal affection to 11, he seemed to feel no guilt after killing 11's mother, torturing her, or just killing others in order to maintain control.

34:28 So if Brenner adopted a religion, we think that Gnosticism would suit him best. This ancient belief system reveres hidden knowledge, or gnosis, as the path to power and salvation, mirroring his obsessive experiments to unlock psychic abilities in children like 11 or one. Brenner is manipulative, ruthless, calculating, often masking his cruelty with a calm like paternal facade. He subjects children like 11 to torturous experiments, prioritizing his own scientific ambition over their well-being like we mentioned earlier, and uses affection as a reward only whenever the children seem to comply.

35:19 His visionary yet unethical Myers Brigg INTJ traits drive him to view subjects as tools showing fleeting humanity but ultimate remorselessness driven by ambition and an unhealthy pursuit of psychic power. Unhealthy being the keyword there. Brenner experiments relentlessly to unlock human potential even at the cost of lives. His whole quote UN quote ends justify the means approach stems from ultimately his own pride and arrogance with little regard for ethics unless it will serve his own like agenda.

36:02 In his exchange with 11 in season 4 episode 8 entitled P11 finally confronts him and realizes for the first time that she is not the monster Papa is. She asks him a series of questions to diagnose his poor judgement and selfish ambition. Why are you doing this? Because there's no other choice. There is a choice. Only one that is right. And you make the right choices. I try. Did you make the right choice with Mama? Your mother was sick, 11. She was a danger to herself and to others. She brought a gun into the hospital.

36:46 She killed a man. Hospital A prison. Everything I have done was for your own good, for your own protection. And Henry, you kept Henry in that lap, but the children, was that for our good? Was that a right choice? I had no idea what Henry would do. I cared for you. I loved you. I loved all of you. Even Henry. Yes, I was trying to help Henry to understand him. Yes, yes, I cared for him. Even after what? What? He did, yes, because I knew I had failed him. So this morning you said you believed he was always alive in the darkness.

37:34 Is that why I was searching the darkness? Was I looking for him? For Henry. No, no, we were focused on the Soviets. You knew that. Papa does not tell the truth. Henry said that and. Now you trust Henry. Henry, who's manipulated you like some puppet. You. You are the one who released him from his prison. You. And now you are angry with yourself and you're taking your anger out on me and you're risking everything. No, you, you have risked everything. You have lied. You made me look for him. The gate, The mind flare.

38:24 So many dead, all because of you. Because you could not stop, you could not let him go. I came here to try and understand who I was, to see if I if I was the monster. Now I know the truth. It is not me, it is you. You are the monster. Wow, that's such an empowering, that's such an empowering moment. Yeah, for 11, Like 'cause that's something that she wrestles with for most of the show really, that she wants. To know if she's the monster. Yeah, because she bears the guilt of opening the gate and that causing the events of the show.

39:15 Yeah. All right, now we take a look at Albus Dumbledore. Dumbledore is benevolent, eccentric for sure, and profoundly wise, blending humor with strategic foresight into mentoring others. He fosters growth through trust and tough love, emitting his own flaws while prioritizing the greater good over personal power. His warmth and moral compass make him a protective father figure, which contrasts from Brenner's more detached parenting style, if you want to call it parenting. So yeah, Myers Briggs wise, maybe he would be an INFJ because he's deeply introspective and private about his motives as well as his past.

40:08 He's strongly visionary and future oriented, like the long range planning about how to basically move Harry in such a way to like plan around Voldemort and his return and like leading Harry to the Horcruxes and motivated by values and compassion. He makes choices that are morally complex. He's structured and carefully laid. He carefully lays out plans over improving. Yeah. And kind of like with the religion theme, we would think that Dumbledore may most closely actually align with Christianity because of some of the values we see in him.

41:05 So yeah, I mean, especially Dumbledore's like, he he shows sacrificial love as well as like adheres to just themes of moral integrity and redemption. So he prioritizes love as the ultimate power, which is very similar to Christian teachings such as John 1513 in the Bible. Greater love has no one than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. That's my favorite verse. And so Dumbledore's willingness to sacrifice himself, to mentor flawed individuals like Snape toward redemption, and to fight evil through compassion rather than through domination reflects Jesus.

41:59 Dumbledore rejects opportunities to seize power, similar to how Jesus refused to call angels down to deliver him from pilot. And it shows impartiality toward all people, regardless of their background. While his Greater Good philosophy once veered utilitarian, post Ariana's death it shifted to a selfless protection of the vulnerable, ruling out power focused or supremacist face. His active fight against evil and sacrificial ethos match Christianity's mantra of grace amid suffering. Dumbledore seeks to defeat evil so Voldemort and nurture that heroism and others motivated by love, redemption, and balance.

42:55 He manipulates events subtly for protection, not for domination, and sacrifices himself willingly to ensure victory. And just a quick note here as well. This goes to show that the Christian life is not one of perfection. Placing your faith in Jesus does not make you sinless, though over time you will sin. Less. Dumbledore certainly wasn't perfect, but he did submit his life to the goal of conquering evil through sacrificial love. Arguably his most beloved quote is this one. But you know happiness can be found even in the darkest of times if one only remembers to turn on the light.

43:47 Wow, He recognized that light pushes back the darkness, and we as Christians believe that Jesus is that light. And Speaking of light, it's time for our last segment, The Lightning Scar Round. Here we go. So yeah, buckle up, y'all. So last episode Lauren asked me the questions and so now we're flipping it, so I'll ask her these questions. Here we go. Oh man, question #1 who was the more manipulative mentor? Brenner with his paternal control over 11, or Dumbledore with his secretive guidance of Harry.

44:28 That's so difficult. But I would say overall more manipulative would have to be Brenner. Oh yeah, Brenner with 11. Yeah, because Dumbledore, his intentions overall were good, like, like he he like you said, he had this plan of he wanted evil to be defeated by good. But Brenner, his motivations were just very sketchy, very like much about his own selfish ambition. What he did to 11 is like inexcusable. Like, I don't. Yeah, I would have to say Doctor Brenner. Nice. Yeah, it's a good answer. Thank you.

45:16 Question #2 If Brenner took a more Dumbledore like approach and raising or training 11, how would she have turned out differently? Wow, that's a good question. Oof. I I think that she would have more confidence in who she is. OK. I think that she wouldn't necessarily be viewing herself as the monster like throughout the whole series. I don't think she'd have to to fear that if like if Brenner had given her the true fatherly type affection that like, let's be honest, we all crave and need, Yeah. I think that that would have built her up in such a way that she isn't fearful that she's the monster.

46:12 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like more, more self-confidence, more and well, self-confidence stemming from identity, Yes, I would think like her identity would be more clear, yeah. She would know more how to relate to others as well. I mean, cuz I think we talked about how one of his unethical tactical approaches was to shape her perception of others and manipulate that to make it seem like he is the only one that really is her safe space and loves her. And that would be very confusing to a young child where it's like, you're telling me you love me, but you're putting me in like isolation and forcing me to do these things.

46:59 Like, I think about the the one experiment, if you remember, I think this was in, I want to say season 1 and Brenner wants to see if she would be willing to like torture a cat. Do you remember that? And she like, oh, you can just see that it eats at her and she doesn't want to do it. And she, I mean, I'm proud of her. She ultimately was just like, no. And then you can see his demeanor, like his he just looks so disappointed with her and frustrated. And then he puts her in the like little isolation thing and.

47:35 Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like with the identity element, like with Harry, Harry gets a group of people together in Book 5 because he's going to train them and how to fight evil. And he calls it Dumbledore's Army because he because he doesn't understand all of Dumbledore's decisions. But he looks up to Dumbledore. Right, right. That's. Such a good point. Elle Does, 11, does not view herself as part of Brenner's army. She doesn't want to be associated with that at all. Yeah. And I also think that she doesn't even fully understand why he's so, is so wrapped up with this idea that he has to, like, find information out about the Soviets.

48:26 Like, honestly, I don't think she really, it's like you, you've raised her up for slaughter in a sense. Like she, she's not, she doesn't care about what's going on in the outside world. You haven't even let her experience what the outside world is really like, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're only about the children are only valuable to him whenever they do what he wants them to do. Yeah, yeah, that's so twisted. It's like a utilitarian. Idea. It is interesting to think about how she would maybe have turned out differently if he had shown her more affection like how Dumbledore did with Harry.

49:04 Yeah. I guess the show wouldn't be quite as interesting though. I guess, yeah. Quite a strange. Strange. Yeah, All right. Question #3 Who caused more long term harm in Brenner's experiments or Dumbledore's withholding of key truths?

49:32 All of it resulted in death of characters that we really love, and so that's tragic. But if I had to choose which had more long term harmful effects, I would probably have to go with Brenner's experiments because I don't I'm like, man, if if he hadn't been running that whole experimental program would like, I don't think we'd have a show to watch because Henry would have, you know, gone forth. I don't know. I mean, maybe, but it would. I think, I think there wouldn't have been the connection to the Mind Flayer because Brenner did not create the Mind Flayer.

50:18 Like the Mind Flayer already existed in its own desert world, even though he likes it cold. OK, OK, whatever. But Brenner connects the plot to that. Like connects the plot to the mind player. So yeah, without Brenner and his obsession with the MK Ultra project, I don't know how they would have even connected to the Maya player, you know? Yeah, so much death. I will give though for anyone who, if your thought was well actually maybe Dumbledore's withhold withholding of key truths. What I'll give you is what we talked about in our episode about Vecna and Voldemort is that if you look at strictly body count, like Voldemort did kill more people.

51:07 Overall. And so if you look at it from a factual standpoint, maybe more harm ended up happening because of the withholding of key truths. But. But I mean, I don't know. That's more about Voldemort's plan, which, yeah. Yeah, OK. Well, actually, that ties into another. Question. Let me. Go to question #4 So related to Dumbledore, Could Dumbledore have prevented Tom slash Voldemort's rise to power? Wow. Like, I think about this because earlier we talked about Dumbledore's restraint, right? And so I mean, that leads me to wonder, like, OK, what if he didn't restrain?

51:52 What if he had intervened? Like what it? Stopped, Tom. I don't know. You're on. Right. I'm like, I don't really know what he would have done other than like. Well, I mean. Put him in Azkaban. Found proof, you know, And yeah, to imprison Tom, Yeah, earlier on your The question is, could that have prevented Tom's ultimate evil rise to power? Yeah. Man, Like, maybe. However, there's a part of me that thinks maybe not because Tom seemed to be pretty entirely consumed by his own sin and his own thirst for power that I don't know if just being imprisoned would have been enough to fully stop him.

52:47 It would have made it more complicated and difficult for him to enact his plan. But I don't know. If someone has resolved to do evil and they think that their idea of how the world should be, that that is what needs to happen, then it would take a literal act of God, like God intervening in order to prevent that. And like Dumbledore, like yes, earlier we did point out, you know, you pointed out some parallels that he has with Jesus and or like Christianity. And while that's true, like we also pointed out that it's, it's an imperfect parallel.

53:23 Like he we're, we're in no way claiming that Dumbledore is like a perfect representation of God. He's he's not. And so even if Dumbledore had gotten Tom imprisoned earlier and would that have saved a lot of lives? Like, yes, I think, I don't know. I'm like, didn't Sirius break out of Prison of Azkaban? I'm like, if Sirius could find a way to do it, surely Tom, I mean, he was he was a very brilliant student like we. And I think he probably could have found a way through manipulation of the prison guards or I don't know.

53:58 I mean, we've seen a stranger things that you can have corrupt prison guards, you know that you can. Yeah. So I'm like, maybe. Yeah. I think that, no, I think that he still would have found a way to become Lord Voldemort. I mean, unless they just had him executed. But I don't think that Dumbledore would have been able to come up with the proof that he needed in order to just have Tom as like what, like a 16 year old executed. I just don't think so. So I don't know. What do you think? I mean, I agree.

54:29 Yeah, I definitely agree with the like changing the heart piece because yeah, like he, he was determined to use the dark arts and because he wasn't shown any, I guess he didn't believe in any other alternative. Who's to say I just thought about this, but who's to say? If Dumbledore had tried to stop Tom earlier on, who's to say Tom wouldn't have just used the Avada cadaver spell on Dumbledore right away? I mean, if he caught wind that Dumbledore was trying to slow down his evil plans, I mean, he might have just killed Dumbledore.

55:12 Yeah. I mean, he killed a fellow student, right? Moaning Myrtle. So. Yeah, I don't know. It's crazy to think about the what ifs. Right, yeah, that's good question #5 OK, switching back to Brenner. OK. Did Doctor Brenner so like Doctor Brenner in 11? Did Doctor Brenner genuinely love 11 like a daughter? Do you? Because you get you get conflicting scenes. They're at least they're conflicting in my. Mind. No. No, it is. So yeah, what do you think? I'm going to say from Brenner's perspective, yes, like Doctor Brenner, I do believe he really was convinced that he loved 11.

55:59 OK, he he was convinced. OK, he's convinced that he had love for 11:00. We we are not led to believe like we don't know much about his personal life like you mentioned earlier, but it doesn't seem like he has his own like biological or adopted children. We never see a wife like we don't really know. So he may truly view these kids, though it's it is twisted, but he might view them as his own, like he's caring for them. OK. So from his perspective, I do think that he feels that he does. However, we we obviously can recognize that that is a very twisted form of love.

56:43 You know, I know, I know we talked about that, but it's like if you really, really loved her like your own, you would be dying to yourself and putting her needs above your own. You would be caring about her mental, physical, emotional and spiritual state. Like he, he clearly didn't. I mean, when it came down to it, he cared more about his own selfish ambition, his his thirst for knowledge, his desire for success, you know, to be, to be stronger than the Soviets. Like he had all these other ulterior motives that I think that mattered more to him than than 11.

57:28 And so can you really call that love, right. I mean, if you look at First Corinthians 13 of what love is and you read that list, you're like, he can't, he doesn't fit within. Yeah, with those qualifications. And so then from that perspective, I would say no, I don't think, Or maybe it's that he doesn't really. Maybe he just, this is really sad, but maybe he doesn't. He hasn't had a good example of what real love is. And if he hasn't experienced it himself, he doesn't really know. I'm not, again, I'm not in any way justifying his actions, but maybe I'm just trying to think through, you know, all the different angles.

58:10 Maybe he just didn't really know what love is and and how to love her. Well, yeah, I don't. Know and that's that's like a foundational like principle of the Bible like of what Jesus teaches that like you like we love others because God loved us like we like we we can only show we can only genuinely love other people right because God his love does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it's sad because, you know, it does. It breaks my heart for him. Like it's like we're not led to believe that he has experienced God's love.

58:52 Like his heart seemed hardened to that. Yeah. All right, some quicker questions. Maybe maybe a little more lightheart. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, we we got a little deep. A little. We like to go deep, but also but also we want to have some fun. Yeah, Let's do a few quick fun questions. OK, number six. Number six. Who would win in a staring contest? OK, so. Def different kind of vibes. So you got Brenner with his like, I don't know, he has that kind of like laboratory gaze, but then you also have Dumbledore's, like, twinkling eyes.

59:28 Twinkly eye twinkle. Yeah, that's a good question. I think, I think I'm gonna go with with the Dumbledore. There's a lot of wisdom behind those eyes, you know, And I, yeah, I don't really have much reason why. I just my gut. My gut answer is I feel like Dumbledore is a very determined individual. He did prove himself to be successful in his endeavour, even though he knew that it would end in his own, likely in his own death. And so I'm like, man, he's determined. And I think he could win in a staring contest.

1:00:08 That's a good answer. Yeah, I think I agree. OK. I think Brenner would be like distracted or like off put by the twinkling nature of Dumbledore's eyes. So I think Dumbledore would win. Yeah. And lastly, question #7 beard game question. Oh my gosh. OK. So who would win? Brenner's clinical shave or Dumbledore's wizard leaf love? Oh my goodness, I I think I got to give it to Dumbledore again. That's a powerful beard. It is. There's a lot of power there. Like I respect him that I don't I've, I don't personally know what that's like obviously, but I imagine that takes a lot of of upkeep and.

1:00:57 Confidence, like he's just letting it flow. Like, yeah, yeah. And and to be honest, like, I think part of it is my own personal bias because that opening scene, and I think it's of season 4, it's like a flashback and Dr. Brenner, he's like alone at his house getting ready in the morning before going to the lab. That's why I mentioned the crossword puzzle at the beginning. He like times himself, you know, doing a crossword puzzle and he like, shit, do you remember he's shaving his face And just like, what is that?

1:01:30 The ASMR stuff, like the noises and like hearing the noise, just the hearing him like shaving and seeing it. I'm like, oh, I don't, I don't love that. And so maybe I just felt off put like by that. So I'm like, yeah, it's gross. We'll just go with the beard. It's powerful. It's such it's such a quintessential Dumbledore trait like. Oh yeah, you got to have the beard. Like it'd be odd. It would be odd to see. Could you imagine if they just Dumbledore just wanted to see everyone's reaction? And so he pops out in like the 5th movie and he's completely shaved his beard.

1:02:04 Like how would people even respond? That would be wild. That would be wild. Hashtag not my Dumbledore. Like, like exactly like when you think Gandalf or when you think Dumbledore, you think right away. Beard. You you imagine the beard. Just that luscious. And it's so powerful. You. Gotta let it flow. Right, yes. And so, yeah. So I'm gonna go with his wizardly fluff. Is that what you called it? Yeah, yeah, I'm. Calling it. Yes. Well, that yeah, we won't add anymore fluff to that. Oh my gosh, yeah.

1:02:44 Well, that concludes our Lightning Scar round. Thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed listening, give us a review or a rating on wherever you're listening to us as it helps us reach other listeners like you. Totally. So our next and final episode of this miniseries, we'll be focusing on Nancy Wheeler and Hermione Granger. If you have any thoughts about these girl bosses, their similarities or differences, strengths or weaknesses, we'd love to hear from you. You can contact us at [email protected] or on Instagram at our handle, Camp Nowhere Pod.

1:03:27 Thank you all so much again. And we will catch you on the next one. See y'all. See ya. None.